Oral History Interview - Johnnie Walker

Audio file

2010.134

An oral history interview with Johnnie Walker, interviewed by Sweet Patootee August 18 2010. Walker was the Chairman of the Hackney & Leyton football league and managed the Premier Champions in Hackney & Leyton.

Total length - 1 hour, 49 minutes, 14 seconds.

[00:00:00] Explanation of the interview format

[00:00:59] The Olympics and its impact on grassroots sports, the areas and teams Hackney Marshes serves, their website (Hackney & Leyton FC).

[00:04:30] The Olympics impact on football and finances, other leagues vanishing, vanishing of community spaces.

[00:07:02] What grassroots football is in Hackney, old leagues and community, teams Walker played for, vanishing outdoor sports grounds and facilities.

[00:11:11] Olympic impact on Hackney Marshes’ football fields and services, new facilities.

[00:13:21] Staggered kick-off times

[00:15:22] The aging committee, burdens from the FA and councils, CRB checks for adults.

[00:19:00] Bad habits and behaviour in football, the game for the community, issues with the physical aspect of football, fines.

[00:23:20] FA council issues

[00:24:12] Racism between teams, Walker’s experience while playing for Anglo-Italian teams, ethnic minority teams, community spirit.

[00:27:36] How the Marshes look.

[00:28:53] The number of pitches, the pitches on the East Marsh, the grassroots outdoor football game being in trouble, loss of leagues.

[00:31:23] Walker’s first experiences playing football, teams hes played for, leagues he’s played in, Lea Marsh pitches.

[00:37:02] Joining the Army, playing football in the army, leaving the army, joining another Anglo-Italian Club, playing against other clubs.

[00:41:19] Playing for Mazzini Garibaldi, having a heart attack, the old changing rooms at the Marshes, players getting the bus while playing for Islington Queens.

[00:45:01] Playing in the London Sunday Premier Division, getting the bus to Shepperton, pub after the game, nice pitches

[00:48:08] Anecdotes about Hackney Marshes.

[00:50:48] Changes to the Marshes, impositions by the FA, registrations, rules with the FA

[00:54:30] Bad quality changing rooms on the Marshes, quality of pitches and drainage.

[00:57:25] Getting pitch 10, spoiling pitch 8 and 9, getting new pitches.

[01:01:56] Digging up of pitch 10

[01:06:04] Meeting with Trevor Brooking (Director of FA Football Development), meetings with people over protecting the Marshes.

[01:10:14] Uses of pitch 10, memorial bench for Jack Walpole.

[01:12:59] knocking down dressing rooms on the East Marsh, parking problems, handing the marshes to an outside company, complaints from players and referees.

[01:17:30] How the changing Marshes affected Walker, effect of the Olympics on the Marshes.

[01:20:50] Player facilities changing, pricing.

[01:24:14] Women’s football, women’s changing rooms, youth football playing times.

[01:26:50] Opposition against mixed football.

[01:30:15] Debris from bombing on the pitches, opposition again the pitches as a campsite, FA funding for refurbishment, campaign for dressing rooms.

[01:35:10] Lesney Factory.

[01:36:29] Queen Vic pub closing.

[01:38:18] Hackney Wick’s community.

[01:40:44] Individual and team conflicts, the football community.

[01:44:06] Tensions and friendly atmospheres, football as common ground.

[01:46:22] Football career history, upbringing, family history.

Sweet Patootee (Created by)
School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) (Subject of)
Hackney Community Action (Subject of)
Turkish Football Association (Subject of)
Alevi Cultural Centre (Subject of)

Walker, Johnnie (Subject of)
Goldstone, Rebecca (Created by)
Blakelock, Keith (PC) (Subject of)
Walker, Johnnie

Hackney Marshes (Place)
Kurdistan (Place)
Turkey (Place)
Wood Green (Place)

Photograph - copyright Arnau Oriel

No

Interviewer (I): [00:00:00] [Starts abruptly] The business end. But basically just this and then we’re sort of not going to get too serious really. The way that we work, I'm sure you've done this already. It's like a one-sided conversation and we want you. So I'll nod and maybe if I have a question I'll ask it but essentially we're here to hear you.

Johnnie Walker (JW): Ramble on.

I: No no no no no, you don't. No, you're very very focused. I've noticed that just in the few minutes that we've been here and so I'll give you guiders to the kinds of things that we're interested in.

JW: Yeah, sure.

I: And if you tell us and if there's something that we want to know, then we'll ask a specific question

JW: You'll interject, yeah.

I: But if it's just, you know like just a little bit of a steal I'll bring you back, then I'll do that one as well. But, you know like, thank you in advance because, A. You've given us a time but, B. We're both sports fans and we both of us have been into sport and I think that we're going to have a good time as well just listening to you. So thank you for that.

JW: [00:00:59] Well that's all right. You're welcome. As I say I do quite a bit of it actually. You know I've been on Sky Sports News and stuff like that asking me about grassroots football and the way it's going - which is very worrying to be honest. You know, the outlook for grassroots. I think for grassroots sports as a whole that's why I really don't go overboard about the Olympics because if I think they were serious about grassroots sport and investment into it, 9 billion pound that it's costing would have been paid into grassroots sport, you know, at the base level to bring youngsters on and getting them all involved in it. The Olympics has lost its idealism as you might say and its become an elitist function really, you know, for top athletes. It really ain't about participation like amateurs, the great amateur idealism, which it used to be and so that's why I don't really go overboard about it. I'm interested in it, of course, and I shall watch some of it, but I'm afraid it's infringed upon us something terrible.

You know, we’re closing our pitches down thats caused major disruption. And they put up new dressing rooms that don't satisfy us. It's all inadequate for our needs. And we didn't ask for it. We didn't ask for posh dressing rooms. These boys play every week and they pay to play the game, you know, ain’t if they don't pay. They're working class kids mostly from the background as you know - local community. And it's not just for Hackney. The football, the Hackney Marshes is a facility that serves the whole area, you know, the all of east London. [Be]cause, I don't know if you know about Islington? Islington’s hardly got any football pitches apart from market road which I'm sure you're aware of. You know what else is there? There's a few at Finsbury Park, but nothing on the scale of the Marshes. And the Marshes is a wonderful facility, and it serves Tower Hamlets, Newham, obviously Hackney, Leyton. We have teams coming from south London to join our league. We've had about three. We had a Colombian team coming over last night, all the way from Streatham to join our league.

They look at our website, and our website is, you know, not boasting. I mean, to be honest, I weren't really up to speed with computers and the like, but I've taken a great deal of convincing because there used to be some comments on the website that was detrimental to the committee and everything. I mean, we're not above criticism, but some of them were stupid and they wasn't putting their name. So that put our back up a little bit. But then I mean, I thought well, you know, people were free to speak their mind and they might have something useful to say. You can ignore the idiots and just take notice of the ones who've got fair comments to make. So that that has been improving on. In the last few years its become a wonderful website full of information. You know, the club seems to respond to it and they all enjoying it. I think it's a great PR move for us.

[00:04:30] It also puts across my complaints about the infringement of the Olympics onto our football. You know, the interruption of a couple of years. Well, I think it's going to be more than that. I can't believe it'll only last two years. Finances are bound to come into it somewhere along the line. That's a certainty. And they’ll run out of money. I think they already have. It's already affecting some grassroots sports, you know, which are taking a backward step. So, I think it's been a great medium for us to put across our point and it's been picked up by several people. Newspapers have picked it up. Television certainly's picked it up. So it's getting a load of hits and people are aware of … and we've tried to maintain the Hackney & Leyton League. We've tried them … we are very likely the biggest league in this area of east London and north London - general - because a lot of leagues have gone to the wall. Four very big leagues have not survived and it's very sad to see these leagues go. We might have benefited from it but we're not smug in the knowledge that we've done that. We've taken other teams that have fell by the wayside from other leagues and I think it's a sad fact and the FA should have been aware of it long ago that this was happening because of the vanishing facilities and finances obviously - people being strapped for cash. It takes a lot of money to set up a football league, a football team, you know, a club, start them up. There's too many conditions put on by the FA. They don't really acknowledge the fact that grassroots football at our level, park football, is run for community clubs, social clubs, pub teams, street teams, the likes of that. You know, that's what it's been for years. We've got uh we got public houses closing down. So, there's no sponsorship there, you know, where there used to be a load of pubs started up their teams and to get the players interested. There's less of that than there's ever been. We find that. And of course the publicans insist on people going back to the pubs. If they’re gonna sponsor a team, they will insist on it, which is fair enough.

I: The last thing that you were saying about the local sponsors and the way that teams get forward and the kind of community groups who you see this as being for. To me, that's my explanation to the question I was going to ask: ‘What do you mean by grassroots football? and also locally for Hackney: ‘What do you mean by grassroots football? [00:07:02]

JW: Well, grassroots football, I mean it's the very basic level. Not to say … this ain't saying demeaning it as though it's a lower standard because quite frankly, some of the standard of football that you see over the Marshes is excellent. And I've been in Sunday football all me life. And I played for teams that had conference players playing for them, you know, years ago there wasn't a conference years ago, but the old leagues and teams like that, you know, with the Walthamstow Avenues, Tooting & Mitchum still going. And I played against players every Sunday in the Premier Division of the London Sunday League, which was a massive league of about 10 divisions years ago. I mean, that sort of thing ain't around no more. I don't know where … as I say, there was more pubs and clubs around them days. There used to be youth clubs, working men's clubs, every pub seemed to have a team. For instance, when I was growing up in Clerkenwell, we had about six teams in a little small area of Clerkenwell Road around Leather Lane and that vicinity. It was an Italian quarter basically ‘cause I'm from Italian background. Me mother was Italian, father's English and we was brought up and we all played locally and I played for about four different clubs around there. There was a selection, you know, not that you pick and choose, but you sort of all went where your mates went, with your mates. And then I graduated. I moved out of the area, played for a team in Islington in Upper Street, a team called Islington Queens, which [is] not very flattering these days. It was after the Queen's Public House, you know. I'm afraid to boast about that these days, but it was a wonderful side.

You know, there was plenty of teams and it's just vanished. I can't put a finger on it because the kids are still trying to play. You know, they're out there. They're buying the football shirts, aren't they? From the clubs. So, I don't understand where it's all gone wrong. Because we're providing these facilities. A lot of the facilities have gone. I mean I don't know if you're aware, Tony, but I mean over the last 25, 30 years about 50% - it's not quite as high as that, it's in the high 40s - of national playing fields or sports grounds have vanished. And that's under Tory administration, Labor administration, call it what you like. They've all allowed it to happen and various councils of different denominations have allowed schools to sell their sports pitches off. And what you got there? A Tesco's or Sainsburys or something like that or B&Q. I mean that's not going to encourage sport is it? and that's what really worries you because it's still going on in spite of everyone saying ‘Oh, well we're still providing facilities for sport.’ It's all indoor sport. Everything you see is leisure centers and stuff like that. 5-a-side football, you know, that's great. Not being personal. It's great for office boys who just want to come out and have a game and then have a shower and rush off home, but it's not encouraging the real game. The real game won't survive unless the 11-a-side outdoor game is looked after. That's my opinion.

I: Okay. The 11-a-side outdoor game. Bring that to the Marshes now. Tell us about your concerns about the 11-a-side grassroots outdoor game at Hackney Marshes. [00:11:11]

JW: Well, my concern about the Marshes is, first of all, the major disruption that the Olympics is causing it. Leading up to it at present, the last couple of years we've had pitches vanishing, not enough pitches poorer quality, the changing facilities we never complain about. All we’re really worried about is our services, you know, what sort of standard the fields were and the playing surfaces, the drainage, everything. And it's all been perfect over the years. You can't complain. The staff have been wonderful. The Rangers looked after us and that aspect of it … you can't really have a word to say against them. And it's helped us as a league to carry on. We haven't recruited a lot more teams but we've maintained the status quo which, in this world today, with the, as I say, facilities and outlets for players to join, clubs vanishing. I think it's a remarkable achievement for all my committee. I think they work very hard to keep us going. The website's helped. But this next two years is going to be a real test for us, because when them 12 pitches go, over the Marshes, over the East Marsh, we're going to be having less pitches, the facilities, the changing rooms, I think although they're an improvement, a great improvement, on what we had because we had leaky roofs and everything, but that didn't seem to worry us. The showers was fairly in good order, working all the time, so we got by there.

[00:13:21] And these new facilities [are] obviously an improvement, but if they're inadequate and you get people standing around, they expect us to stagger kickoff times. So, as one team goes in, changes, takes their stuff out and puts them in lockers in the joint hall that runs the full length of the complex. Well, that's all very well, but if you get a game, a late kickoff, so if a team turns up late. I mean, I've been told by the council at several meetings, ‘Oh, well, you know, you got to insist that the teams get there on time.’ I said, ‘Well, you got no knowledge of Sunday football,’ I said. What you gonna do if they turn up late? You're going to say no game? I said, the other teams turning up that they're waiting there for the players to turn up, there's circumstances like traffic and that sort of paraphernalia going on. I mean, the Blackwall tunnel ain't no help at times, especially if a team's coming from that area. And you know, it's not fair to to say, "Well, that's it. You're late. No game." We always allow our team 20 minutes, and we have done for years because we want to see people play football. We don't want to see people claim games and say, ‘Oh, you're late. We're claiming the points.’ Because that's not in the spirit of the game and it never has been and it never will be as far as we're concerned and we’ll never bring it in. They’re asking us to change their rules to say ‘Oh well you can't play so this other team can go in and wait, follow on.’ But it doesn't end there. What about cup games, you got extra time? So everything has a knock on effect, see they haven't thought it out. That's all right on a small complex where there's two grounds or something like that - say up the road, there's two pitches where you got no conflict. But in a complex like the Marshes, it's a massive complex. How are you going to manage that? And we're supposed to manage, you know, we're supposed to sort all these problems out.

[00:15:22] And I don't think it's fair to put that sort of burden on us. [Be]cause me and my committee, three of us are over 70 and me and the treasurer, we're approaching … we're both 77. So, it's putting an increased burden on us, there's no youngsters really coming along to take over. To be fair we got a couple. We got a couple of … I say young, but they're, you know, they're in their 40s. We got a couple of them to come along and take [over], but they ain't coming out the woodwork in their thousands to come and take our job, you know? Everybody's quite satisfied when we have our AGM (Annual General Meeting) and I have an election. I'll go, ‘Well, we're willing to stand again.’ They can't wait to put their hands up for us to stand again! There's never any opposition. So, it's getting harder for us every year.

We're having more burdens put upon us by councils, the FA. The FA, well, I don't know if you're aware, I'm an FA councillor. I'm a London FA councillor. And it amazes me the stuff that comes out of there. What do they think we are? We're dealing with street teams. They want us to do everything! Ridiculous. Put health and safety issues, all them sort of things that come out of the woodwork in this last few years. The problem with referees - it don't affect us so much, but it affects youth football. All referees now or anyone to do with youth football has got to have CRB checks. Now you might think that's right, but that to me is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There might be the occasional bleeding pest who's involved in sport and with youngsters and of course we want to see them rooted out. But to more or less criminalise the whole section of the public that want to help sport at the grassroots especially at youth level or children's level, it's going to have a vast effect upon the game because these games between youngsters, 9 times out of 10 they're refereed by parents or something like that. They're not refereed by bonified FA qualified referees. That's all very well if you can get them, but there ain't these hundreds of referees out there waiting to do kids games or anything. And there's volunteers and everything to take people - kids - to football. You might take your own son to football, you got to take three other kids in the car or something like that. And what you have a CRB check for it, you know, an ordinary parent. Don't make sense to me. But that's all the sort of things that … and that is affecting youth football which, sooner or later, has got to transfer to the adult football. So, you're getting all these impositions put upon it at that level and as it moves on it's going to affect, as I say, it just invariably will come to affect the outside game in the future for adults because the transition hasn't been made.

[00:19:00] And there's other things, I mean, the culture of football, they watch it on television now. They pick up all the bad habits of football. They don't pick up the good habits, you know, the arguing with the referee, the bad language, everything. That is really an issue because they come into our adults football and they think they can get away with it. They get away with it in kids football cause in kids football you can't punish them, you can't fine them and you can suspend them. What they do is they fine the clubs. You can't fine an individual kid, so that's a no no. So it's very hard keeping a lid on it at youth football level. And of course it will affect it when they come into the game. I mean, we get a lot of … It's not as bad as people make out. Let me say that. I don't want to exaggerate the situation, we only reflect society. Football's no different than society. We're just caught up in it just as much as everyone else. So when we're out there Sunday mornings, I don't expect them to behave any different and any better than society as a whole is acting. But in general, I say the importance of football in the community isn't recognised. It certainly isn't recognised by the council, Hackney council or anything. They give a scant regard. I don't think they've ever been in touch. The mayor of Hackney, well, I don't want to wind myself up on that. What he knows about football. He should write on the post-in stamp.

These kids, they're local - they grow up in the school, they had the same issues that every school kid has. They rebel against authority sometimes and then they come up against a referee who's been given a bit of authority and the referee tries to implant this and he's instructed by the FA to abide by a set of procedures to go to and we all know what it's like. I mean, the FA, the game's changed so much that physical football is really frowned upon sometimes. The physical side of the game has really … it's not at the heart. When I played it was very physical and you got clumped by great big boots with leather studs in them. If they rake them down the front of you, if you wasn't had shin pads on that thick well you come away a cripple. So that them sort of changes in the game. And these are Sunday morning footballers, although some of them the quality, as I tried to explain earlier, it's very good, especially in our Premier division it's excellent. And some of the tackles are going to be late. So the referee being given guidance by the FA is strict on it. Take him out and give him a yellow card. Now that yellow card is going to cost him £10. It was 8, now it's going up and the cost. So for that late tackle, he might have intended to get the ball. So he's a bit late? You know, big deal. When I played, we clogged each other all over the place and no one waved a yellow card in our face. We just used to get a free kick against us and that was it, that was your punishment. And that's how it should be.

But of course the FA and their wisdom have instructed all referees to, you know. That's great at the upper echelons of football and in the Premier Division and the football league and the conference and so forth. But when it filters down to the grassroots game, that's not very clever to find these kids £10 from a late tackle. And we have all them sort of issues, finances. I've known cups to be suspended because the secretary hasn't shown them the charge sheet. The kid … so the kid gets suspended inaudible[00:23:13] till the fine's paid. The fine if it ain't paid on time increases by another £20.

[00:23:20] All these issues … and as an FA councillor I've voiced my disapproval so many times but I'm a voice in the wilderness. Now I don't like to call them old fogies and things like that because I'm one myself but I do look at the players point of view and see how much the game's changed. The people that I say have come in on the council, they're mostly ex referees and things like that. I don't think they've ever played the game. Half of them have never kicked a ball in their life and I sit around the council sometimes and I listen and it appalls me that they're running football. I'm a part of that and I'm sitting there listening to it and they vote for fine increases and god knows what, and it appalls me that they got such scant regard for these players that play Sunday mornings, who are amateurs.

I: Then bring it back to these players who play, but thinking the community and Hackney Marshes again. What's the value of this game to the community? What is this? [00:24:12]

JW: Oh extreme value. Speaking from experience over the years, I mean I remember when the first black teams, all black teams, played. There was a racist comments and god knows what, you know, people who resent it and to be fair, the black teams their self didn't like heavy tackling at one time, you know, they frowned on it. They thought they was being persecuted cause they was all black team and stuff like that. And we had all that in the early days. Now, everyone's completely integrated. Everyone gets on. And the black teams are acting no differently than the white teams. They're putting the heavy tackling about just the same.

So everything's worked out, as I say, when I was playing I basically played for Italian clubs, Anglo-Italian clubs and we had to put up with the same sort of racism, we was called all sorts of things under the sun, you know. I remember playing in the Anglo-Italian Cup final at Peterborough and we was abused. We was … we could be English, but we had to have English, uh, Italian grandparents to play for this team, this in the Anglo-Italian Cup. And we played the team from Bristol and they was all Italians because they was all from brick workers and things like that. And they had hundreds around the line. And the abuse we had. We've been used to being calling ‘Italian this, that and the other’ all our lives and suddenly we was ‘English this that and the other.’ [Laughs] So you know what goes around comes about. It was funny. I tackled one little winger who was a bit speedy, I thought ‘Well I’ll slow him down.’ I was getting old then and I knocked him over the line and that's not to his inaudible[00:26:24] and I knocked him into this crowd and the abuse I got and I can't speak much Italian at all - I only speak the swear words and stuff like that and the slang, the Neapolitan slang which have been brought out to listen. So I don't speak proper Italian. And my mate who speaks perfect [Italian], is the center, he said to me, ‘You want to hear what they're calling you,’ [Laughs] he said. Which was funny but it goes to illustrate how in time, given time, everyone instigates. I mean we've had, in our league for instance, we've had Cameroon teams,, Ghanaian teams. We've got two Romanian teams in the T. We've had Albanian teams and, to be honest, you do get a bit of racism at the outset and sooner or later, everyone's friends and that's what I like about football. It brings the whole community together. We all get on great. We're all friends and everyone respects one another on there. And I don't think they realize, you know - the authority - I don't think they realize the value of it.

I: Can you do this for me? For these researchers who are going to, you know, maybe see this interview and others and maybe some of the kids as well, school kids who don't know the Marshes and what you're talking about. Visually, if you describe what is it that you're talking about. What does Hackney Marshes look like? [Phone rings; Chatter] What's it look like? And what does it look like when the games are on? [00:27:36]

JW: Oh, it's a marvelous sight. Especially on a great day. I mean, you anticipate the beginning of the season with so much eagerness. When you look out at that vast - I mean, to be honest, it's messed up at the moment. You look at the East Marsh with all the construction going on over there and they desecrated our pitches and put awnings up around it. But if you have the South Marsh, you will have an unobliterated view of the whole area. And it's a wonderful sight, especially with the greenery on a fine day. It's nice. Nice blue sky, playing, and you see all these people enjoying football. It's a great sight.

I: How many pitches? [00:28:53]

JW: At the moment, I think we're down to about 60, 65, in that sort of area, on and off, because some are taken out of the equation. So, it's not as many as there used to be, obviously. There used to be 100, 110. But that wasn't very good quality then. The surface was good, but they was on top of one another. You had a little gap like that so you taking the throw and you was on the next pitch.

But things have improved so much over there. Especially the East Marsh which is the prime. See our league has had the East Marsh for the last 10 years. We pay for it up front and they're the best pitchers on the Marshes, kept beautifully. We know the groundsmen. Anytime we want a moan, we have a go at Danny the groundsman. And he's, you know, he takes it all in good heart. It helps that he's an Arsenal fanatic. So we all get on and … when you go out there even in the cold weather, when it's freezing cold on a nice day, it's still a pleasure to be out there. That's what the outdoor game does. It attracts and I won't say it's attracting new people but it should do because people, as I say there's so many indoor facilities gone up now which they encourage, it don't appeal to me - never has done. Indoor stuff, the five-a-side game or I call it Mickey Mouse football. And this new futsal what they're all screaming about. Oh I mean, I've got no time for it. None of it is going to sustain football as we know it. None of this, 5-a-side, anything. So to me the FA have missed a trick because they should have realised long ago that football - especially grassroots, outdoor 11-a-side football and especially the adult game - is in trouble. It's not everywhere. I think some parts of … you know, nationwide it's still as good as ever. But there's a lot of areas where it’s falling down. And London I think we've lost a lot of clubs and we've lost a lot of leagues and that's a thing that's worrying.


I: Sorry to interrupt you, but if I could do this because you've given us from the heart the way that you feel about things now. And then just at the end you were talking about how things have changed. So if we take it you back to when you first got associated with football over the Marshes. And give us what you remember and what you feel about your memories of your first associations. [00:31:23]

JW: Of course. Well, the first time I played over the Marshes, I must have been about 14 or something like that, you know, a real youngster. And it was very sketchy. I mean, I wasn't all that keen in them days. Not, you know, to not … I was keen to play football, but not keen to take it too serious. But then all of a sudden you get caught up in it. Up until then I played for the school and we used to play every lunch hour. I don't know if you know Exmouth market? Do you know Exmouth Market? There was a cinder pitch behind there, was full of cinders. I don't know if you've seen the like of it but we used to play there every dinner hour, inter-house. I used to go to a school there called Hugh Myddelton and there was inter-house games and you played on the cinder and then you had to go back to school afterwards and you smothered in the cinder dust and I’ve still got the cinders well in in me elbow somewhere. You know, you fell over and it was all over you, greys, all these cinders were in you. But that was my first experience of proper football apart from kicking about in the playground. But that's when you start to take it serious - around about 14, 15 years. I mean nowadays I mean some kids are taken to the academies and they’re starting football at 8, you taking it really serious. But I mean in them days we was just allowed to kick about in the street and then enjoy it and progress gradually.

[00:33:39] And then we started up a team. Uh I forget … remember there was a caf in Leather Lane? Leather Lane Market. And a big Italian woman run this caf and she said … she had an adult-side that played in the Hackney & Leyton and she wanted the team just to play friendly because there wasn't no leagues for kids then. And we played for this team. Couple of times there was a place called Coram’s Fields, the Foundling. That's off of Gray’s Inn Road and we played down there and it become more serious then - they were sand pitches like red ochre. So then, as I say, we made progress of that and I played for a team in Clerkenwell Road. They started up and they was in the junior league - that fell by the wayside after a while. We all had play centers in them days where the schools used to run sort of clubs after hours and that had a league, that started up a league and that was quite good, that was quite a taken that was, You know, there was really good teams, good little street teams playing. Nothing really on a great organised scale but they’re quite well done.

Then I played with this team Islington Queens, as I say, and they was in the … Hackney & Leyton started up the junior league - two junior divisions and we was a brilliant little side and we was runners up in the league in the premier they had two divisions where we was in the first division - we was runners up in that and then won the Leyton Junior Cup at The Hare & Hounds because we, I don't know if you … Do you know Leyton FC up Lea Bridge Road? Well we play all our cup finals there and we had done for years. I mean, ever since, Well, as I say, I was 16 at the time when we won it and we played the cup final there. The Hackney & Leyton used to have it every Sunday morning and it's a big league in them days the Hackney & Leyton, really class teams playing in the Premier Division and these junior teams were real quality. So that was my first experience and we played all our games over the Marshes. And not only just over the Marshes - Lea Bridge Road, Lea Marsh used to have a load of pitches on and all. The whole area was pitches. Millfields - that used to be pitches. There was so many pitches over … you couldn't believe it. Yeah. everywhere you looked, and even if you went further than that, if you cared to walk from Lea Bridge Road and took a walk east, you would come across more football pitches. It was amazing. There were so many, so many facilities and I don't know how they kept them all in good condition but they was.

[Phone rings]

[00:37:02] That point again: the amount of pitches was unbelievable, so you’re spoilt for choice. Then after that I played for another year and unfortunately I didn't see the season out cause I was called up to go in the army. And I went in the army and … bit brutal at first you thought, ‘Oh, don't like this.’ Then I got posted to Scotland and I remember standing there, we was in the squad, ‘Anyone play football?’ Well, of course I was up. ‘Anyone here played for a big club?’ So I thought, well, I ain't really, but I'm going to have a lie here. So I said, ‘Yeah, I was on the Arsenal books.’ [Laughter] ‘All right.’ They said ‘You can play.’ So there's a few of them, there's a kid there who was on West Bromwich's books. He put his hand up, he plays. So we was given a chance and, you know, it was up to you then to prove your work. I played in an arranged friendly and I scored two goals. So I was made then, I was in the army team and you're treated like professional footballers. I didn't do nothing. I just played football for the whole two years and I wouldn't say I was a great cricketer but I could play the game. I played cricket in the summer. So I would have stayed there all me life, you know, that was a wonderful thing, wonderful experience and that was a great experience for football. I was in the team that won the Scottish Command Cup final. So … that was the only medal I won in the army. The football medal. [Laughs] I could have got posted at Korea cause the Korean War was on at the time, but the football team, they don't allow … they don't allow you out the place. Once you're in the football team, you're treated like little gods. So, it was a lovely life. I was training every day, no parades, no nothing. Even firing a gun. I remember going to the rifle range and I said ‘Well I don't fancy doing this.’ So I used to get a flag to go up the road and have a smoke. Red flag, you know, the warning flag to warn oncoming drivers. That's it., you know, keep away. So that was my little job. [Laughs] I didn't far to go.

So, [I] come out of the army, inaudible[00:39:48] got back into the swing of things, started playing in the Hackney & Leyton again. And I played for a couple of years in that and then I joined a club, another Anglo-Italian club down from Clerkenwell Road, the pub down Clerkenwell Road and they was a very good side playing in the London Sunday Premier Division. And I thought, ‘Oh, that'll do me.’ Of course, I went away from the Hackney & Leyton for a while and played in this league for about 10 years. And that was a truly … we never won it, but it was a class league, you know, all class players, Tooting & Mitcham players, everything. I'll give you, for instance, I played against the Tooting & Mitcham side, they was all playing for this team called Stanford Rowers and they had all English amateur internationals playing for them, and at the time it was quite prestigious. And they played Notts Forest [Nottingham Forest FC] the week before they played us in the FA Cup and … they drew two-two of them and they got beat in the replay but it just shows you the level of performance. And then we're playing against them on the Sunday morning, the same player. So it was a real class league. [I] Played in that till I got quite old you know and then, well not old - about 35. I thought well, you know, I stepped down again.

[00:41:19] I played for another Anglo-Italian club called the Mazzini Garibaldi Club, shortened to MG Sports, in the Hackney & Leyton. Didn't do too bad. We got in a couple of cup finals, won two of them. And I played in that for about another 5 years till I was about 49 and had to stop for an heart attack. I had heart attacks, so I had stopped playing football which that slaughtered me really. I never envisaged, I thought I'd go on forever playing cause there was plenty of football available even if you was older. And at that time the Marshes was full up in them days, it was full up all the time.

It's sad really to see it change, but it changed in some respects for the better. The changing rooms were appalling back in the early days. They used to be little dark huts, but were little more than sheds. And the two teams that were playing there with no light in them or anything. So on a gloomy morning, it was dull as anything. And then after the game, all there was to washing was cow troughs like that, and great big long aluminium troughs and though you wash your boots in them, wash your face, everything in them. And that was the facilities, but as I say, everyone enjoyed it. They didn't expect no more. And you used to get, I mean, top quality players because there was a lot of boot money. And some teams over there Sunday, I know this for a fact because they used to play in the Premier on Sunday mornings, well they used to give them boot money. So they paid … these amateur teams paid their players, and good quality players, and they used to play over there with no qualms. Yeah. Everyone got on with it. You didn't expect no more. No one had cars for a start. I mean, very few had cars. Us personally, when we played for Islington Queens. We used to get a bus up the Angel, the 30, and it used to come to a Victoria pub, just up there, the Vic, which is costcutters now I think. So that's another one that's vanished. We all used to drink in there waiting for the bus. But we used to get off there and walk to our pitches and there’s hundreds of them, it was like on London Bridge on a workday morning when people from London Bridge and walk over to the city. This is exactly what it looked like in them days. We used to .. throngs of, you know, just walking towards the Marshes. It was so different and we didn't have sports bags. We all had little attache cases if I remember [Laughs], little brown attache cases with our kit in [Laughs]. It was very different. But when you think back little things occur to you, you might get your time factors mixed up a little bit, but when you look back, certain things stand out. And that exodus from the bus stop to the Marshes used to stand out, so does the old cattle sheds. And, you know, you wouldn't have not liked to experienced it because it was a wonderful experience.

[00:45:01] When I played in the London Sunday, the Premier Division, course well that was very much posh, we all had to have private pitches. I, for instance, our pitch was over Shepperton. I don't know if you … Shepperton where the film studios were and near Kempton Park Race Course. So we had to go out there every Sunday morning and we used to meet at Upper Street, congregate there. We was always late, and had to have this drive all the way over to Sheperton. And usually it was in an old van that had been used for greengrosser work every … and it stunk! Stunk to high heaven of rotten greens! And we used to be in that going all the way there and it was a long journey but no one cared because we had a wonderful ground there at Shepperton, it was behind a pub. And so all the other teams that used to play away, they all let us travel when it was their own game. The same vice versa. We had to travel all over London for our away games. But no one used to complain. The pub was open all afternoon after we finished our football. So everyone had a drink. Everyone was happy - except one team I know, knocked down someone's wall on the way home. [Laughs] They drove straight into the wall after a few glasses and it was the days before breathalysers. So they shot away from the scene very quick.

You know everything was a great experience. Every different aspect of it. We played on wonderful pitches. As a matter of fact this is … watching this Pakistan team has jogged my memory. We played on a pitch in West London - away game, it wasn't ours - where the Pakistanis used to train their cricket. They used to use this facility and it was perfect. It's like bloody Wembley Stadium. You couldn't believe it. And we used to have that. That was after we had Shepperton. I don't know, I think that closed down after a while. But it was a great pitch, the drawback was it had a lake at the side of it, a fishing lake, and it was rather adjacent to the pitch and the ball would go in there now and again. And on a freezing cold day, it took a very brave volunteer, cause it ain't the days like today when they got about six footballs in a bag. We only had about two footballs and if one went in and the other one usually weren't blown up, so some brave soul had to brave this icy cold water to go and retrieve the ball before the game got underway again. So all little anecdotes like that that was quite funny.

I: Are there others about Hackney Marshes that come to mind? [00:48:01]

JW: In what respect, Tony?

I: Anecdotes? Like you were saying the ‘throngs’ - that's a brilliant image. [00:48:08]

JW: Oh … well … the great thing about where these dressing rooms was and the cow shed, these the cow troughs I mean, there was a slope as you come out of it. It was all down in the dip and as you come out of them, [laughs] you had got the slippery slope. And if it had been raining there, it was like an assault course. You can imagine all these footballers all changing at the same time and all getting out on the pitch at the same time, scrambling up this slope cause it was rather steep. There was steps if I remember, just somewhere along the line somewhere, but of course you were too lazy to walk around the steps but … Oh yeah. Oh great anecdotes. I mean, in the days, in the years before we had football nets, now we all have nets up there now, you know, everyone has to have their same and put the nets up before the game.

I remember playing in a game where [there] was a new referee, some young kid, and he ordered a penalty against us. So, I stood behind the goal. I wait to retrieve the ball really. And the penalties go and the goalkeeper got his hand to it and he just stopped it on the line. I run from behind the goal and [laughs] kicked it away! And the other team went potty! And they surrounded this referee. I said ‘Well that’s all right ref.’ So they went ‘Yeah I can't see nothing wrong with that,’ and it created a new riot. [Laughs] We have had some experiences of referees over there that, you know, make you cry. It's a hard job refereeing, but some of them ain't got a clue and and you don't know that when you take them on, you know, they're completely green.

And another game I can remember where the referee who give a corner, then give a penalty, then when the penalty’s been saved, he ordered it retaken. He’d do about five different decisions and, you know, the sort of thing that creates riot people [laughs]. What's going on here? And it shows that, you know, and everyone starts walking off the pitch and stupid things like that. There's been some great incidents over there. Too many to recall really.

I: Well, maybe if we see it in terms of changes then. If I ask you; from those days, what your early days when you used to play over the Marshes, what changes can come to mind then, from then to now? [00:50:48]

JW: The pitches are much better. They're obviously much better. Obviously different techniques of looking after them have come into play. Goal posts are in better condition. Markings - pitch markings. Everybody does their level best to keep them up to standard, which hasn't been the case in a lot of areas where you play football. Apart from that, I don't think there's a great deal change for the better because, as I say, all these health and safety issues and other impositions put upon us by the FA. I don't think it proved the game one eye over because … even my own league has become bureaucratic in spite of me trying to cut everything down to the bone and say get on with it. You get teams complaining about other teams playing ringers and registrations and all that lot. In my day, I didn't sign a registration form. You just got out there. See, I mean, what has happened with teams getting this squads mentality, got to have so many players for a squad. And so everyone's got about six players on the line, as used as substitutes and things like that. I think that's not a change for the better cause people want to play football. I certainly wouldn't have stood a substitution years ago. That wouldn't have suited me at all. You want to play football - you don't want to sign up with a team and stand there on the line. It amazes me that it happens. And as I say, they have to sign forms, sign this, sign that, just to prove that they're registered players.

I remember an original handbook that come into my hands, a Sunday morning handbook, and it was about half a dozen pages. That's all. That was it. The contents of the league, the constitution of the league, and about half a dozen rules that you had to apply. Now, you get a book that thick with all rules in it. Rules and laws and what you must do and what you don't do, you know, it's like the whole thing with the FA. As an FA councillor, I'll sit on discipline cases sometimes and I've got to act like a magistrate. I've got to have the knowledge of a solicitor or a lawyer. People just … if you don't do anything right, they run screaming to the FA on a technicality and I've got to give up my time to go to the FA to answer questions. Fortunately, it ain't happened to me cause … most of the people, they don't know how to challenge it. But you get one or two smart, Alex, who do know how to challenge a thing and you've only got to slip up and say something wrong. So it's all procedures like that and it's the same, as I say, at competition level. None of it's helpful to football. In my day we just got out there with a ball and that's it.


I: Thinking about facilities then, change in those terms. Did the changing rooms and the troughs to wash in ever get any better? [00:54:30]

JW: No. No, they certainly didn't. They got worse. They got worse as time went on. Doors become gaps in them where the wind used to howl through. There was no glass in the window at the back, you know. So it was wide open to the elements. And the two teams used to train in there. They used to sit one side, so if there was any conflict during the game, you could imagine the banter, you know, it got a bit nasty at times, but you used to sit one side on some wooden form and they used to sit … theres bare hooks on - well half of the hooks were missing, so you had to dump the stuff on the bench. Oh, it was really poor, but we all got on with it. No one complained. I say the dressing rooms on the South Marsh and the North Marsh have been quite adequate for years but our ones on the East Marsh have been poor. They've always leaked. The securities was a bit better and the showers and everything worked well and, to be fair to the council, they done their best to keep everything bumping along on an even keel. As a matter of fact, they've been brilliant over the years. You know, anything we've wanted done, they've done to their best of their ability cause they're cash strapped and I should imagine that's the last thing on their mind … way down their list of priorities, providing football for …you know, with great changing rooms and everything. But to be honest, as I say, we've never demanded that or never asked for it. So … we can't demand anything.

But what we have liked is the quality of the playing fields and the drainage over there is marvelous. I mean, I don't know if you're aware of why it's such good drainage. Half of the rubble of London Blitz is underneath them. That's where they dumped all the rubble. So that drainage is wonderful. It's all down to Hitler's bombing. [Laughs] So you know, something's got a use somewhere. I told a German journalist for that, she thought it was quite amusing, when she come over and interviewed me. I've done plenty of interviews for foreign televisions and foreign radio and especially Dutch and German and they can't believe that they're using our pitches as a car park. They find it incredible that that's been allowed to happen. And I did, cause I've had an on-running battle with the FA over it.

I: I was going to ask you, funny enough, because I caught a glimpse of one of the interviews that you've done and you were talking about pitch 10 and when you were talking about your private pitches, you know, like a Shepperton, it brought to mind the idea of this one pitch that was better than the others even though they all have good drainage. And it's bigger. Tell us about, not about it being dug up, tell us about pitch 10 and why it was special and the way people felt about it. [00:57:25]

JW: Pitch 10 over the East Marsh. We went to the council a number of years back now, I'd say about five or six years back and we asked them to give us two exceptional pitches. Not of quality because the quality was already there. We asked for two fulls size pitches - wider, the length was always good on the pitches, It's the width that counted. They had plenty of room to do it, so we asked for it and the council, they conceded to our request and they done it and they was wonderful pitches. So, I've been attending regular meetings of myself and Alec Pretlove, our treasurer and vice chairman. He goes with me and we've been to the meetings. And they wasn't supposed to interfere with any of the pitches until May 11, the end of May 11, which is the end of next season. So, fair enough. We knew it was coming. We knew we couldn't turn back the clock and stop it all together because so much money's been plowed into it. And of course it's got government approval with the Olympic Delivery Authority and the London Development Agency. So we can't fight them. I expected the FA to do it, but they've been toothless to be honest.

So this pitch 10, we finished our playing season. They've already taken pitch 8 and 9 which were two really good pitches on the East Marsh and dump spoil on them and then they put a holding in around them which, you were talking earlier about the view, looking out on the view, you know, coming out on the East Marsh Sunday morning was an unspoilt view. You could see all the games going on, you could access, walk through to them, all the pitches we used to walk around all the pitches. And all of a sudden they took these two pitches halfway through the season and dumped this spoil on them, which they call spoil. So, you had these two great big mounds of earth on the pitches to spoil the whole outlook. I mean, I know it might sound a bit picky, but it's our life they've interfered with. So, I was really wound up about that. They asked me what I thought of it in the first place. [They] Said, ‘Well, we'll give you the pitches over the back, which were the rugby pitches.’ They said, ‘We'll convert them to the football pitches.’ thinking that’ll appease me. I said ‘Well that's not the same,’ I said, ‘They’re rugby pitches.’ And anyway they went ahead and done it. John Wade, who's Head of Green Spaces found me out and said ‘Well it's going ahead, John’ I said ‘Well,’ I said ‘Not with my backing.’ I said ‘We're totally against it.’ So he said ‘Well we’ll do these pitches up as best we can.’ The rugby pitches then were transferred to the South Marsh which in turn took up three pitches. So you're losing pitches anyway. So they ain't giving you nothing. So they replaced the pitches on the East Marsh - football pitches - they give us 3 pitches there because the rugby pitches being bigger. But every team that played on them comed up to me and complained. Said ‘John, them pitches ain't … they're bumpy. They're not up to … they're not up to standard cause a rugby pitch takes a battering for some reason, and, you know, it's got much more ways of breaking the ground up for some reason. I don't know why. I can't explain it, but apparently it is so. So, I went back and he said, ‘Well, sorry about that.’ And he tried to, you know, do the best he can with the pitches and bring them up to standard but they were still complaining at the end of the season. So anyway, I thought oh well, you know, we still got the 12 pitches over there.

[01:01:56] Next minute I know the season's ended. Someone drove past there. John phone me up. I’m getting a call on me mobile, ‘You seen what they done to pitch 10?’ I said, ‘No’ I've been to a meeting … bear in mind, I'd been to a meeting with them on the Tuesday prior to this, prior to me getting this phone call, which is on the Monday. I went over and looked and there's all stuff over the pitch dug up and everything. This beautiful pitch, you know. I immediately got on the Head of Parks again, John Wade who I've got quite a good rapport with. I said ‘What's going on on pitch 10 John? He went ‘I don't know.’ He actually said to me he don't know. And he said ‘Leave it with me,’ he said ‘I'll find out.’ Then he got back to me later in the day and said ‘Oh yeah they've given permission to dump stuff on it and dig it up, use it for their equipment and that.’ I said, "You didn't say nothing about that.’ I said, ‘Did you know about it?’ He said, ‘No.’ [Laughs] He’s Head of Green Spaces, he don't know, he ain't told us at a meeting. I said, ‘Well, that’s appalling.’ And I done my nut. I really felt like going around the council and smashing the place up, to be honest with you. I'm not a violent man, but that's how it took me. They slunk in their nets inaudible[01:03:28]. Anyway, I moaned to the Gazette. I told them the story cause the Gazette's been very supportive to us, the Hackney Gazette. And they immediately printed the story about it and I made an official complaint about it and I get a letter back from Nicola Baker who's Culture Secretary of Hackney Council, saying, ‘Oh, sorry that you're so upset about it, but apparently you was told.’ I said, "I wasn't told." I said, ‘I don't know nothing about it.’ I said, "The information I got, and I've got letters to prove it, it wouldn't be touched till May 11. We'd already lost two pitches halfway through the season, and now we've lost this one, which is the best pitch on the Marshes.’ So, I was really angry about it.

And that's when the television company, London Today phoned me, they must scare the local press for stories, and they phoned me up about it. It was quite funny cause we went over there and he set the camera up outside the gate, so all this going on was in the background and some jobsworth come over with a yellow coat on and the hats that they, wear the safety helmets, they said ‘You know you're trespassing?’ Well that done me, oh I exploded. I said ‘Trespassing?’ I said ‘You're trespassing. Look what you've done to our pitches.’ So he said, ‘I've not come here for a confrontation.’ I said, ‘Well, I have.’ [Laughs] He started muttering or something. I said, ‘You a football fan?’ And he went … he just shook his head and walked away and then got on the phone. Next minute, there's a helicopter buzzing overhead. And the bloke said to me, the cameraman said, "That's that's a television -" uh, not a television, ‘A camera helicopter.’ He said, "You can tell by the thing on the front.’ He obviously knows his stuff. He said, ‘They come down and look and see what's going on.’ I said, ‘Well, I can't believe that.’ But he was certain that's what it was because it was such a coincidence. It was about two minutes after this bloke got on the phone and then the sight of this helicopter buzzing. And the presenter who's well known, he’s on there all the time, Simon. He … it's incredible.

[01:06:04] And then I saw the programme, someone told me it was on and I saw it cause it was repeated and, I think a Tory councillor from the London Assembly he come on afterwards, after me interview, and he said that that it was an appalling decision and that they disturbed such an iconic place as the Marshes, which is totally right. As I say, I've - in my capacity as an LFA councillor, I've had interviews up Soho Square, when it was at Soho Square it’s at Wembley now I don't know if you know, it's been transferred all the offices. I moaned so much and wrote a letter to Trevor Brooking, cause he is Director of FA Football Development, and I wrote to him and I had a real go at him because he said … he stated in the press that the Marshes was sacrosanct and he knows all about the Marshes, he's played there and everything. So I wrote a quite, it was quite nasty, letter back. I said, ‘Well, you better get yourself a satnav, I think you forgot where it was.’ And to be fair to him, he invited me up to Soho Square. But he didn't like what I had to say to him cause he started banging the table and … he said, ‘You telling me I ain't done nothing for grassroots football?’ I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘You ain't.’ I said ‘If you can't use your influence,’ I said ‘there's football, FA Director of Football Development, to prevent our pitches being taken as a car park,’ I said ‘I think it's a pretty poor show.’ And he went, ‘Don’t tell me I ain't done nothing for football. And then he called his secretary to minute it!’ He said, ‘Gentleman here, Johnnie Walker, thinks that I've done nothing for grassroots football.’ I said,’Yeah, that's right.’ [Laughs] It was very confrontational cause I'm being a bit confrontational when I want to.

I don't use diplomacy when I feel I got a point to prove. I don't see the point in it, you know. Well, why not tell the truth? How you feel? Cause I'm not speaking for myself. I'm speaking on behalf of a load of footballers because, believe you me, they all get back at me when they got any complaints, and they'd all come running to me and saying this, that and the other, you know, what's going on, John? And I can't explain half the time because I'm kept in the dark. But I've had meetings with very senior people there. I've had Jonathan Hall who's the Director of Football Services. I've had a meeting with him and told him and … I think the Chairman of the FA, who's the acting Chairman at the moment, Roger Burden, he's …cause Lord Triesman got the sack over his infidelity. He's actually wrote to Mayor George Pipe and I have sent copies, I can't divulge cause their confidential but I've sent copies … he damns them with faint praise so to speak in the letter but ask him very searching questions about ‘can you give me insurances about the Marshes and about their continued legacy,’ cause he’s obviously worried cause all my letters find their way … because every every letter I write to the FA, they'll have a CC on for the Chairman of the FA, and I know the reason cause Triesman has been on the … Lord Triesman put this Jonathan and all on to me and a couple of times. So I've had a good ear in there but it seems to me that they're very weak at applying pressure. I thought they'd have a lot of political clout and could put a stop to this but obviously not.

I: Thinking about then, what it's meant to other people through your experience and as you see it. Tell me this. How did pitch 10 work in relation to others? Was it like the pitch that you got to play on if you were going to play in a cup final? That kind of thing or …? [01:10:14]

JW: No, no, we didn't play … no. Pitch 10 wasn't used for our cup finals. I think one year we did because we experimented. We used to have divisional cup finals cause we used to run 9 cup finals, which is a lot of cup finals, a hell of a lot. So we cut it down to our 5 cup finals. We cut the divisional cup finals out but one year we had them on there and that's the prime reason - funny you raised that question - the prime reason we asked for pitch 10 and 11 to be extra special sizes so we could run our semi-finals and finals on them. But as I say, we've gone back to using, well we always did use the Hare and Hound for our senior cup finals, you know, we've got 5 big cup finals. So we still use that. That's quite expensive that, you know, that cost about £500 a pitch. You know, it's not cheap. Sorry, no, no, not as much as that - £300 a pitch. When you work it out, it's £1,500 we have to pull out for cup finals. You know, we don't complain because the club sent a lot, you know, and then closed the ground for playing football. It makes them feel a bit special. So, that was good. But, I mean, pitch 10, we play all the premier games on there. The top club, the top game of the day was always on pitch 10. And the fixture secretary always rings me up and asks me for … there was a seat there … a memorial seat for our late general secretary who was a wonderful man called Jack Walpole. 24/7 man, done everything, always available. So we had this bench there that all the clubs contributed - that's been moved now. That's been put in docks till we bring it out again and have a spot for it. But this pitch 10 had this bench there and course me and the other old codgers, we've commandeered this cause our legs ain't good enough to walk around no more, we've all got arthritis and bleeding God knows what. So, you know, it's appalling that we lost it, and it's a great shame cause, as I say, it's a full size pitch. We still got pitch 11, which is a full size pitch. So, I hope they don't do nothing with that. That is … that's a top pitch.

[01:12:59] But the problem is now, which I haven't explained up to yet. The real problem will be this season is our teams that use the East Marsh now, now they've knocked our dressing rooms down, they've taken the car park away. Apparently, they're putting a temporary car park further up near pitch 11, which for about 80 cars, which should still be inadequate because we used to have 150-160 cars there every week. So, it's still an inadequate facility. Parking along the road’s a no-no because, you know, you won't be able to park there. So what they got to do, if they are going to use the car park, they got to use that, they got to leave their car there because the South Marsh car park will not have enough facilities to take an extra increase 150 cars, it's not going to happen. And the Olympic workers are parking all the way down Homerton Road. So you can see the problem with parking is going to start so I've made them all aware of this, I said, ‘You let a double up and stuff like that, try to conserve space so as we can all make available.’ So we got that, but if they do use the East Marsh car park, they've got a park there, walk all the way to this South Marsh facility cause this is where the new dressing rooms are, this new complex, then walk back to the pitches. This is all within the staggered half hour kickoff times. So, you know, and there's this great big awning round there. So, I said, ‘Well, you got two choices. You got to walk back down the road over the bridge, down Homerton Road again. Or you got to walk top left hand corner of East Marsh, where there’s a foot bridge, you got to go over that and then make your way back down there.’ So, each one, each alternative is a long walk. So I said this to Wade. I said - John Wade - I said, ‘That's going to be ridiculous,’ I said, ‘how are we going to do that, in the time span?’ He went, ‘Only five minutes.’ I said, ‘Five minutes?’ I said, ‘You having a laugh!’ I said ‘Well, you come and do it in five minutes.’ Anyway, they insist that it can be done.

I think it's … and to complicate the issue, the Marshes have handed over the running of this complex to an outside company and I think they've done that with all their leisure facilities. I know Kings Hall swimming complex has been handed over to the same company, company called Greenwich Leisure Limited and they're going to run … well … I don't think the staff are very happy about it cause they'll be coming under there and, you know, they have new conditions imposed upon them and I don't know if they're very happy with the conditions that's going to be imposed on them because, as I say, that staff has been wonderful to us over the years. So quite frankly we don't know how it's all going to pan out until we face it and it's, you know, it's up and running -

I: What kind of whisperings are you getting from players then, about all this? [01:16:23]

JW: The players don't know … I can't blame them, but they're apathetic to a large … the secretaries at the clubs are obviously very concerned, but the players don't know much about it till it hits them. When it hits them, they got to do that, they got to walk all this way and they got to park their car in an inconvenient place cause they're not like the old breeds, you know. They're not like us where we used to washing the cow sheds. It's a different breed, isn't it? So, I don't see them really getting to grips with the situation and I'm expecting the flood of complaints and the moans. The biggest moans we got come above the referees. Oh, we got to walk so far to our pitches and all that. They're the main culprits. They're the ones that, you know … and they're getting paid! You know, players ain't getting paid, they're paying to play, so they got a right to gripe. The referees are getting paid for their input.

I: I'm thinking sort of again, visually, for someone who don't know it and, in three parts, what are the Marshes? What do they mean? And what's been threatened? Right? So in, you know, I'm a school kid Martian and I don't know. So not just the football, but the football within this space. What are the Marshes? [01:17:30]

JW: How do you mean?

I: What do they mean to you? I mean just - [01:18:02]

JW: Oh it’s a way of life, Tony, it's been a way of life. I mean, I can't envision a change. I can't envision this change that's suddenly put upon us. It's going to change our lives completely. Not only is it going to give us a lot of extra work, but our whole outlook, we got a different complex to go to. For a start, I mean, I've been used to going over the East Marsh, that's been my base every Sunday morning for years. Now, I simply won't be able to go to the East Marsh, unless I drive my car and leave it somewhere, leave it in the road because I've got a disabled badge, so I could possibly leave it in the road. So, I might be able to do that. But other than that, I'm stuck over the South Marsh complex, which I'm not used to. You get used to something, you get used to being in a certain vicinity and you take that for granted and then all of a sudden it's taken away from you and it ain't very nice. You know, it's I don't think that they even consider that at the time - that they're changing so many people's lives. What do they care?

I think the Olympics has been a massive land grab to me. It's changed so many … I mean, the most obvious aspect of the change is looking across there, where we are now. If you look across the road you can see the massive buildings taking place. That used to be football pitches. Used to be … actually there was two really full-size marvelous pitches over there over the arena fields. They was great pitches. They're gone forever. They're never going to be replaced. The cricket pitch was there. You know where you used to see, I could look out the upstairs window there and see them playing cricket there Sunday afternoon. wonderful facility, you know, being a cricket lover and yeah …I mean, my two favorite sports are cricket and football. They're both being affected by an Olympics. I don't say I've got no interest in Olympics, but all the other side, I like the athletics side of it, but I not got a great deal interest in the other, you know, rowing and stuff like that. They're exciting up to a point, but you can take them with a pinch of salt. I mean, they only occur every now and again. You, unless you're an enthusiast, you don't really know much about them, but it's affected us.

[01:20:50] And the Marshes, as I say, you wake up to that and Sunday morning you … so many aspects of the Marshes is going to change. For instance, the catering over there, our players, it might sound fat, but they're used to getting a hamburger or a hot dog and a cup of tea there. Now they're building a posh new bar upstairs, you know. So they expecting people to change their way of life and the way they are. I mean the bar, I think it'd be a white elephant myself, because if they are drinkers, they're going to go back to their sponsors. They're going to go back to their pubs or whatever. You know, the few remaining pubs - there's still quite a few, not as many as there was, but they ain't going to, you know, they're not going to drink upstairs in there. So, they will go back, weren't they? They … and I can't see people coming from all around the Marshes to congregate at a bar, they're not going to do it. So, I wish them all the best, but they're going to have to have someone to stay there permanent, they can't leave that unattended - a bar and that sort of complex.

So they're going to have … that in itself might put expenses up. My great fear that they might price it out because this is what's happened to leisure centers. Leisure centers was a great idea for local communities at one time and people used to use it, the youngsters but every community center I know, leisure center, has been priced out of local people's pockets. So that could happen, that could happen with sports facilities, that could happen with football. There's certain grounds all over, I mean, the Marshes have been very good to us that they've kept the pricing down to a reasonable level. But if the pricing gone up because … we've had more trouble this year getting in the fees than we've ever had, because of, obviously, financial circumstances. Some of these kids, most of these kids, ain't working cause there's a lot of youngsters playing that league. There's a lot of them and you know they ain't working. They come up, they can't afford the £5 subs or something like that and someone said [gruff voice] ‘Well they can afford £5 to have a drink and £5 to smoke.’ I said, ‘That's their pleasure.’ You can't criticise it, people have their different pleasures so I say, ‘Well, you know, it's still £5 subs they expect to play football for that.’ I said, ‘You know we didn't …’ So the pricing will … that will be an issue I think, especially run by an outside company. I said at our last meeting, I said ‘Will this affect all the pricing?’ I said, ‘You putting this out to outside company?’ He said, ‘No, John.’ He said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘We'll be in overall control.’ But I don't see that because if the company goes through, the private company goes to him and say: look this is costing us we need to put up this, that and the other because keeping this facility up and running - I can see them doing it. I can see them putting the pricing up and I can see it escalating.

I: I've got two thoughts for you, if I may. One, has women's football been … ? [01:24:14]

JW: Yeah, they had women's football over there.

I: Oh, really? Tell us about that. [01:24:23]

JW: Yeah, they come on after us. Well, up till now, I'm saying I don't know what the new issue is going to be and how that's going to work out over this new complex, but they come on Sunday afternoon - women's teams. There's only a couple. There's not a great, there's not a lot of it. There's usually two games at the most, you know. We have about 20 odd games a week, about 23.

I: So, there's no problem with facilities for women to change and - [01:24:55]

JW: Well, there has been up to now.

I: Tell us? [01:25:00]

JW: Well, I don't think the … See, the women had so much backing from the FA. I think they missed the trick because they could have had this changed ages ago. They could have complained about using the South - the East Marsh dressing rooms after the men and they never did. They just got on with it. But if they'd have turned around and said to the FA: look this ain't right. You know, we going in there after the men. The same facilities we have to wait till the men come out. Of course, half of them didn't bother. They walk in the quadrangle anyway. They don't care, half of them. But if they'd have made an issue out of it, I'm sure they could have got somewhere with it, but they didn't. But I'm glad you brought that because that is an issue that needs to be addressed.

If everyone, say, wants to play football at the same time and - see this is another fact. This is to do with youth football and all. Oh, youth football, by rights, cannot take place at the same time as adult football because of this issue brought up by CRB checks and everything - and vulnerable groups. That's all another part of what's worrying about my facilities, that are inadequate, because if you got inadequate, how can you cater for all these different aspects? You won't be able to cater for them. And we won't know until it crops up because I read a directive from the FA development group that more youth football is going to be encouraged over the South Marsh. Well, fair enough, but when's it going to take place? It can't take place when the adult football’s on, can't take place when women are there. So, when's it going to take place?

[01:26:50] And that's another thing that gets up my nose. I voted against it. Mixed football. They were - the FA - at the last year because … it's all coming out now. I'm a shareholder at the FA. Don't meant to say I've got money in it, all you do is get voting rights on the FA. So at the last full shareholders meeting at Wembley, they tried to bring in a rule that was going to let mixed football take place up until the age of 13. I said, ‘Are you mad? Mixed football up the age of 13? How you going to build … How you going to cope with that with inadequate facilities?’ I said, ‘You going to provide separate changing rooms or anything?’ Because if the facilities ain't there, how can they go? I mean, years ago, I wouldn't mind changing at the age of 13 in a mixed room with girls. Wouldn't have worried me one little bit, but you know, I'm sure the women would have worried, you know. So, all these things are done without … So, anyway, it got slung out. I told our Chief Executive, I said, ‘Oh, I'm voting against that.’ Cause we all get a free voting, right? But usually the LFA put pressure on you to vote for one thing or the other. And I said to the Chief Executive, I said, ‘I'm against that.’ I said, ‘You better get up and speak about that.’ And so he spoke against it and we carried the vote quite easily but there was a lot of people unhappy with it. A lot of idiots. As you know I was coming down the lift at Wembley with someone who said, ‘Oh that was silly, chucking that out.’ He said, ‘A lot of girls can't…’ I said, ‘Well they got their own football to play.’ I said, ‘Why do they have to play mixed football?’ But a lot of people can't see that. But that might be all right where they got one, you know, a couple of grand[children] and they can all do it. I still think it's wrong, anyway, I don't know if you agree. Mixed football at the age of 13. I mean, they're quite developed these days, girls. I mean, ain't like years ago. So, I just can't understand how anyone could think that that was possible. And not only that, have you seen the size of some of these kids at 13? You know, I wouldn't like to see them kick my daughter. And I just can't … well, I mean, fortunately, there was more people that voted against it than for it. So all's well, that ends well. But I'm sure they’ll bring it in again cause they do that sort of thing. Once you reject something, they still try it on, you know. That's all the levels.

I: But women's football's been playing here for a while then? [01:29:29]

JW: Yeah, yeah. Oh, I've seen quite a lot of women's football. Some of them are quite talented. They never find good goalkeepers though for some reason or other. [Laughs] Bloody useless women goalkeepers. I've seen some very good outfield players. Very good. And you have to, you know, you wind up being against it at first, but when you see it, you have to admit some of it's pretty good. Yeah. And when watching the World Cup, I don't think they roll around anymore than the Spanish players. [Laughs] Fair play to them.

I: You know the other thing that was on my mind? Sort of going back to the idea of pitch 10 and the rest of it, but you know when you were talking about drainage? [01:30:15]

JW: Yeah.

I: Well someone mentioned in passing that, you know, if there was the debris from the bombing and chances are it's a little bit like hallowed ground in some ways because you never know what's mixed up there. Was there any other people then who had that feeling as well, that if you're sort of digging up the pitches, you're not just desecrating football, you may be in a little way desecrating members? [01:30:26]

JW: You don't know what’s under there do you? In all honesty, that's a fair point. Because … could be parts of people under there. I remember as a boy when a land mine … it was a V2 dropped on Smithfield and there was terrible carnage and they dumped it all on our playground at Portpool Lane which is off of Leather Lane Market. And they dumped all the rubble there and we was finding … we was finding parts of bodies there and everything. It was all dumped there for ages until they cleared it. So, you know, that sort of thing could be underneath. Could be bits of people there and you don't know, do you? Could be all mixed up in it and that's a possibility, they could be. Health and safety.

I mean, you know the other crazy idea which I stamped on immediately, well I hope I have. Sunday people, the other week, running the campaign to use the whole of the Marshes as a gigantic campsite for the duration of the Olympics. Oh I was fuming. I got straight onto the FA. I said to our FA representative, I said, ‘You better have email the FA Chairman and get him to ask questions about this.’ I said, ‘Because apparently the council's considering it.’ I said, ‘Are they mad.’ I said, ‘Do they think we're going to play football on a place like Glastonbury?’ I said, ‘Because the last time they had a weekend event over there, we was finding broken glass.’ But because I don't care what they say, people take glasses on there and you don't stop them. So plastic bottle caps, the tops, they're hard plastic. They get ground in and that can cut you to pieces. Can you imagine what a three week event, three or four weeks over there with a campsite? You know, where's the health and safety in it? Where are they going to go? Where they going to put latrines all over the place? Yeah, I just don't understand the mentality. Anyway, the FA representative got straight onto Roger Burden, as I say, is acting Chairman at the time. He got onto a subordinate who phoned Hackney Council and they denied it. But, you know, I don't trust anyone in this situation because I've had to listen, I've dealt with this situation now since 2002 and I've been in on everything. I've been running a vast campaign against all this intrusion.

[01:33:47] But the only one thing I've got out of it so far is that the East Marsh will be returned as pitches because they've, I don't know if you're aware but the FA Football Foundation have given them 2.6 million towards the refurbishment of the Marshes which is a quite a tidy sum of money and of course they want assurances that that will be returned as football pitches, so as their money ain't wasted. And I keep pointing out to them: you got to insist on this and insist on that. I said, ‘It's got to be set in stone that they will be returned as pitches.’

And my latest fight, and which I'm going to keep on with campaigning until my last breath, is that I want dressing rooms back on there. Because up till now they say, ‘Well there ain't going to be no changing rooms. When the pitches are returned, there will be no changing rooms.’ I said, ‘Well that's completely against what you promised in the outset.’ I said, ‘You said everything will be replaced.’ I said, ‘If we ain't going to get dressing rooms, that's a large part of the facility that falls way below our expectations. We expect dressing rooms.’ So, that's my latest fight and I should keep on to the FA. If no one else is going to provide the money, I should ask the FA to do it.

I: Do you mind one question that's just occurred to me? We've been talking for a while. I was thinking about, as you were talking about dressing rooms there, it reminded me of … a bit little bit of a chain of things. We spoke to a guy called Graham. He used to work at Lesney. [01:35:10]

JW: Lesney Products? Yeah.

I: And as I was thinking about him, saying more or less what you were saying just then about changing rooms, I was thinking about how with all the firms that have gone from Hackney Wick and the way it's changed - that must have changed also as well. [01:35:29]

JW: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I remember Lesney Products, you know, they brought a lot of work into the area.

I: But the football as well on the Marshes, too.

JW: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Certainly. That they also had a big building along here. There was another part of it along here, where this gigantic car park’s gone up. As I say, there’s so many changes. I think I’ve played against them in a friendly - Lesney products - years ago, at the beginning of the season. Gave them a hammering, about 10 nil or something. Oh that was a long while ago. But it's, so much changed around here.

[01:36:29] The biggest focal point that’s changed around here is the pub closing. Victoria pub, the Queen Vic, you know, that was amazing when that closed. I can't believe, cause it was used. I don't, I don't know, I don't know how these things happen. You know, it was a community pub, served this …now you walk out here, there ain't a public house there until you go around. There's not a public house within walking distance. Pubs are closing all around. They was the social focal point of the communities years ago. And so much has changed in that aspect. I don't know if you regard health issues as important, but I think the no smoking band’s done a lot of it because people used to go out with a pint and a fag and they was quite happy to do so. No one moaned and I think it was a great tragedy that they stopped that because they should have had, you know, pubs that do allow and pubs that don't want to allow, you know, a freedom of choice. Taking all that away from you. And I think that's caused a lot of … I tell you a lot of the working man's clubs up north are closed because of that issue.

[To a Lady who has just walked in] All right! She goes to, well she gets invited to all the Olympic events over there, shown around all the facilities and I'll go ‘You traitor!’ [laughs]

Lady: [Laughs] Domestic war. Oh my god. No you can't let the Olympics come between you.

JW: No no no she understands all.

I: I think that we've covered, for me, but there's just one other thing if I may which is, if you can't then no worries, but just, you know I'm dotting ‘i’s’ and crossing ‘t’s’ here. But we mentioned Lesneys and I was wondering if you were … you remember Wick when they were all of the other firms, were you playing football when there were all the other firms and they were all putting out teams then as well? [01:38:18]

JW: Well, well, I've been around here for years on and off. I can remember all the other little businesses around here, around the side streets and everything.

I: What was it like? Tell us. [01:38:57]

JW: Oh, it was just a hub of a community … it was so different. When the tower Blocks was here, it was just quite a large community. As I say, the Queen Vic used to be used a lot more then, when the tower blocks was there. There was little shops. Everything was in walking distance. The pubs, there was two or three pubs to be used. It was such a different way of life. I don't say this is a lot worse. I mean, this is a lovely complex that they built here to take the place of the tower blocks. The tower blocks was sometimes was a pain. For instance, I've walked up the … Val used to live on the 17th floor, I've walked up there a few times and I've had a heart bypass and all. So, you know, it wasn't very clever walking up there. Used to stop and nearly collapse on every other floor [laughs]. So, it wasn't all fun. So, I was glad of this facility when it was built, you know. But it was a good community. As I say, I've always got on well with the people around here. I know a lot of people, and of course I know a lot through football. I've made a lot of friends through football from all different sections of the community. I've seen a load of change and uh it's still all gone on. There’s still bumps along … quite adequate, all of it. You know, everyone's still, for years, still got on.

[01:40:44] We've had the occasional conflicts between teams and things like that. Some situations crop up where they cannot be resolved and you wind up having to chuck a team out the league. But then in my experience when that sort of thing happens it's just because there was a group together. When them players we've chucked out the league, say we've chucked a team out of the league because they've caused a conflict, when we've asked them … when they've come back to us as individuals, because we bar them all for playing with the same club again and they've reapplied to become members, I have them up in front of a subcommittee, you know, and I chair it usually, and I say, ‘Well, you know, you kicked over the traces before. You prepared to put your differences aside with everyone and get on and play football in the right spirit?’ And they go, well, they're full of promises. And they say, ‘Yeah.’ Obviously they want to play football again and they want to play in our league. And to be honest, we don't get many times when that fails. They all comply, and it's just sometimes when they're in a certain group, you know, they had to act as their peers, you know, putting pressure on them and they all join in and that sort of … you will find that. But that's nothing new. That happened as us when I played with Anglo-Italian team, when I play with Italian team. We're sort of a group, you know, and any outside mob wants to have a go at us, right, we're there. You become as … and that sort of thing prevails in football always you just come together to repel opposition to you, so to speak. So it's nothing new and I think we get on grand. I think it's marvelous really how everyone gets on. It's a credit to football and our society should be, but of course it ain't. But we do our best to keep that sort of thing going. And we're an open league. We don't turn no one away. If any foreign team comes, as I say we have all sorts come to us, we invite them with open arms and say … you know.

And funny, you know, this is obvious, everyone knows it, the Eastern Europeans, they don't like black people. I'll tell you that for a start. But they all get on fine, after a season in their league they're all mates. So it just shows you there's some good being done out there. Cause the Eastern Europeans come here with that attitude and now they all get on all right. So it just shows you it works. So that's what I like about football and that's why I'm proud of the community, the football community, and I say I don't think it gets the recognition it deserves.

I: There was times in Hackney when community relations have been quite intense.

JW: Oh yeah. Yeah.

I: And have you been aware of that fear with the football or have you always been able to sort of work things out here? [01:44:06]

JW: As I say, 20 years, 20-25 years ago that might have been more apparent but it's not apparent now. As I say, it's great. We don't get that sort of racial tension between any teams really. You know, I just refer back to the Eastern Europeans and the Blacks. You know, there's obviously a bit of conflict there because that's their attitude. Well, you know from when England play abroad, you know, the black players get abused. But after a while that all settles down after a couple of months of nonsense, it's okay and everyone gets on fine. They all shake hands and they're all mates and they all talk about football and they all come together. Especially at league meetings, if we have an AGM or anything, the league meetings, they all come down. It's sort of like a social event and all the club secretaries, the different secretaries, they all get on fine.

I: I'm going to break the rule of interviewing, okay, I'm going to put words in your mouth. [All laughs] It seems that you are saying that there's differences that people might have outside football, but in football they can find a bit of common ground. [01:45:19]

JW: Exactly so.

I: Tell me that. [01:45:35]

JW: Yeah. No, exactly so, yeah. They might have differences outside football. You know, a lot of them run or get on outside football but within football we find no problem at all. [Chuckles] Perhaps we should get the world playing. Well the world does play football but not everyone [laughs]. Oh no, don't get me on that one because I think the World Cup was diabolical. [All laughs]

I: We’ll do that off tape. Oh, no. We need a postage stamp for you. It's my fault. We should have done this up front. Normally, we ask people, just the way that we do it, just to introduce themselves rather than we do that.

I: So, if you tell us your name, where and when you were born? [01:46:22]

JW: Okay. Yeah. Well, my name's uh Johnnie Walker. Christened John, John Walker, but everyone calls me Johnnie because my dad called me Johnnie all the time and then my mom did then my sister. So, it's always been Johnnie as far as I remember. But I know I was christened John, but everyone's lengthened it. It's funny because people usually shorten it, don't they? But, I'm the Chairman of the Hackney & Leyton League. I've been in the Hackney & Leyton league for years. I've played in it since 1949 and I've also been Chairman for about the last … I was Vice Chairman for a long while and then I've been Chairman since about 2004, so the last six years. I've run a team, I managed a team … I managed the Premier Champions in the Hackney & Leyton - we won the premiership 5 years running. So, it's a record I'm proud of, but it's close to being broken. I say I was born in October 1933 … well, I was born in UCH Hospital. I don't know if you know UCH Hospital. That's off of Tottenham Court Road. Largely my family, very big family on my mom's side, Italians and my dad's English. My English grandfather was killed in the First World War, gas poisoning. I've got very strong English links, obviously, and very strong Italian links and being from a very large Italian family, I was brought up more or less Italian way, you know, food wise and culture wise, but I’m fiercely proud of me English blood and all. So, I think I'm the best of both worlds. Not me personally, but [laughs]. So, I've had a great life in football. I just hope it goes on for a few more years so I can see the legacy really carried out and so we leave it in good shape, when we depart our mortal car.

I: I've really enjoyed meeting you. I really really have.

JW: Oh, I've enjoyed meeting you - good listeners, aren’t you? [Laughs].

[01:49:14] END OF INTERVIEW