Oral history interview with Anonymous
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15/09/2010 - 16/09/2010
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2011.19
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Oral history interview with an Afro-Caribbean man, living in Dalston at the time of recording. Interview taken as part of the 'Mapping the Change' project.
Born 1958 in Montserrat, they have lived in Hackney since arriving as a 6-year old, in 1964. Interviewee does not want their name or photo used.
Born 1958 in Montserrat, they have lived in Hackney since arriving as a 6-year old, in 1964. Interviewee does not want their name or photo used.
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Part 1 of 2 [Full Transcript]
Q. Can you introduce yourself? [00:11]
I. Yeah, my name is [Redacted]. I was born in Montserrat, a small island in the Caribbean. I came to England in 1964, straight to Hackney from Kinsale, to live about Hackney. And I have lived in Hackney ever since.
This Olympics thing, I think the biggest change is going to be around what happens to the Hackney Marshes. Whether it's the bit that they concrete over for the car park, whether they get grassed over again, and the people at borough and the surrounding area will be able to play Sunday football there again. Other than that, I don't think the Olympics is going to have any, leave any legacy for the borough.
I understand -what’s today, is the 15th of September? And I understand the 2012 website goes live today. And guess what? If you live in Hackney, you can apply to be a volunteer! Work for free. Which isn't what people were expecting. The promises were that when the Olympics comes there will be jobs for everybody. If you were in the art and cultural industries, opportunities were endless, in terms of being able to get involved and either perform at the opening ceremony or the closing ceremony, and entertaining the visitors and the athletes during the four weeks of the Olympics. That was the promise.
Now we are seeing the reality. Which is, if you come and give your time for free, you may be able to see some of the show or be in the stadium. But I suspect that, given that they are looking for 70 odd thousand volunteers, the closest most of the people in Hackney will get is directing traffic in the coach park on the Hackney Marshes. That’s what I think the Olympics is going to have for Hackney. [3:30]
When I came to Hackney in 1964, the first thing as a young boy from the Caribbean that struck me was the cold, and the ‘fog’ I used to call it. Now everybody says, “No it's not fog, it's smog”, because it had lots of other things in it, it was real pea soup, some people died and stuff. But that's my first memory of coming to England and the borough. And travelling on a number 6 Routemaster up Wells Street. I used to go shopping with my mom on a Saturday. It's my first memory of the borough, how cold it was. It wasn't, again, it wasn't as promised. I spent the first three weeks walking along the road, the roads of the borough, looking for this gold that's supposed to be in the streets. Well all I could see was snow, when the smog had cleared of course, all I could see was snow.
First day at school was eventful as well. There were three of us, three boys, me and my two brothers, [names redacted]. All of us went to Orchard Junior Mix, as it was then, in Wells Street. Our first day there was eventful. My parents packed us off with a school bag and sharpened pencils and paper to write on. And we were one amongst the few Afro-Caribbean children in the school at that time. And I should say we were fussed over a lot. Mainly by girls, which was quite pleasant. But also by boys, who just wanted to touch your hair and touch your face, and asking if your colour washed off. That kind of stuff. [6:06]
Some of my early memory of schooling in England was a pleasant one. We were seen as novelties. And yes, it was not like it is now, so to speak. However, as more and more Afro-Caribbean children came, we became less of a novelty. And I don’t know whether the other children or the teachers saw the numbers as a threat, in terms of what they were used to. But the feeling that we got from the teachers and other indigenous children was different, it was not as welcoming or as warm. Not as probing. So things started to change that way.
I think I remember correctly, I was in one of the top streams in primary and secondary school. I would have a tug of conscience when I’m in the classroom. One of only two other black boys in, we had got black girls as well, I was only one of the only two black boys in the classroom. And I always remember this phrase that the other kids would say, is that “You are just like one of us.” I didn't understand what that meant, but it’s not me. When I went in the playground and there was a wider mix of children and more Afro-Caribbean people, they would all want me to play with them. But I wanted to play with the friends in my class, and there was that tug. And that carried on right through to secondary school. [8:48]
However, outside of school when I was in primary school, the class, all the white friends I’d made in class, we would meet up. And either go and play and wander the streets. And play in either Wells Street Common or Victoria Park, which was managed by Hackney at the time.
Young kids during those days, getting from your house or your friend's house, to the common or the park - there was endless opportunities for mischief. One of the bits of mischief that was obligatory in getting from one location to the other was playing ‘Knock Down Ginger.’ So between either Wells Street or Kings Hall Road. A number of people will be disturbed by a group of boys and girls who would knock on their door and run away. And you know what? we got to our destination a lot quicker [Laughs] than we would otherwise. [10:20]
But as we all grew old and started secondary school, I think that changed. In the school, in class, I would be amongst the majority of white children. In the playground, I would be split between the two. But out of school, when I started reaching the end of secondary school, the only friends I associated with were Afro-Caribbean children, boys and girls. I don't know why that was. I don't think it was a conscious choice on my part, because I would play with anybody, it just didn't happen. The people that knocked on your door, or was in when you knocked, were other Afro-Caribbean children.
I got into doing things that other Afro-Caribbean kids did at the time. Which was sneaking out of your home against your mother or father’s instructions to go clubbing. And in those days, there weren't many clubs, the formal clubs that played some type of music Afro-Caribbean people would like, Reggae, Blues, etc. So the Afro-Caribbean community created their own clubs. My view is that that came out of two things, probably for two reasons. Either clubs weren't there, the formal clubs weren’t there. And the houses (and they were generally in houses), the houses where the informal clubs were, were created because the person needed the money to pay the mortgage. [12:39]
In Hackney at the time, I think there was St. Thomas’s Square, just off Wells Street, corner of Mare Street. There was four houses that had regular Blues dances, as we would call it. St. Mark’s Rise. I think every other house, and the bits of Sandringham Road that ran into St. Mark’s Rise, would have Blues dances. The south end of Hackney, Victoria Park side, it was Cadogan Terrace. Again, a string of row houses that would have Blues dances.
When this was starting, in the early days, all the properties were owned by the people. And they would have rent out their basements to have these dances. These houses were not small and would have three-four floors and a basement, generally dilapidated, but they weren’t wrecks. [14:16]
As time went on, the Blues dance, the location of Blues dances changed. And in the late 1990s, they tend to be in derelict property or semi-derelict property. Where they would break-in for the evening and turn on the electricity and then have the dance that way.
I later found out that there was a method to the madness, and all of other people who owned the properties were living in what were called Housing Action Areas. These were areas set up by local authorities to clear the area of slums, so to speak. What I found out later in life was that what was happening was, these areas would be set up and the officers that ran these would go to the owners - who were generally black - and say that they needed to bring their property up to a specific standard in a specific time, and didn't offer them any help in terms of doing it. But what they did offer them was to compulsory purchase it, or buy it from them and offer them a nice, new accommodation in a council estate with internal toilet, all the amenities that you would want. [16:16]
And generally, when these homeowners were faced with either spending a great deal of money that they didn't have, or living in something already prepared for them and getting some money in their hand, and they generally took it. And now if you went along to St. Thomas's Square, Cadogan Terrace, St. Mark’s Rise, you would see these houses for sale, the same houses that you used to have Blues dances in. They sell for millions of pounds. Or if not million, a half million, or a quarter million pounds. That’s because the council bought them, did nothing with them, sold them at auction to property developers, whatever, and they have been sold and now are worth what they are.
So all these Afro-Caribbean people - who came to this country early, saved hard to buy properties because nobody would let them live in their rented property - had all these assets taken from them and offered gold in the streets obviously, in terms of living on an estate. I think this is a crime, really. [18:04]
I don't know if you know, but in the 1980s, Holly Street, Hackney, were notorious. Because one of the estates that were promised to these families was Holly Street Estate, to these property owners was Holly Street Estate. Holly Street Estate was new, it was a new design in living, it won awards. It was offered to these families. And I don't know whether… I haven’t done any research around this, but I certainly believe that it was offered to these families, because the white families didn't want it. Because who wanted to live in a ‘street in the sky’, so to speak? A hospital corridor, which is basically what they were. Snake blocks that went on for miles. Get in one end, you didn't see the sky over the street for half a mile down the road. But Black people were offered these.
And when the majority of people that were living on this estate, was found to be ethnic minority, (well obviously, there wasn’t just Afro-Caribbean ethnic minority), the council amazingly forgot about it. And these tenants found it almost impossible to get transfers, impossible to get repairs done. And the estate went from bad to worse to the extent that it became a sink estate. [20:06]
Somebody made a complaint and the Commission for Racial Equality did an investigation into the allocations policy at the borough and found that - amazingly enough - that Hackney's allocations policy in terms of Holly Street was racist. And that Hackney was intentionally offering this estate to black people over white people. There was a big debate in the council, I remember it clearly. There was a big debate in the council, whether the council should do nothing or give compensation to all the black families that were living on the estate for being allocated substandard property. In the end, the council did nothing, because there were arguments about what level of compensation do you give to somebody who had just lived there for 10 minutes? Or lived there for five years? Or whatever. Do you also compensate the white people who were still living there? Because some white people were still living there. So eventually the council did nothing. But that was a fact; that the council allocated one of the worst estates, or turned out to be one of the worst estates, in the borough to black people.
That estate was eventually knocked down and in its place are houses with gardens, which is what people wanted initially. And guess what? They are managed by a range of social landlords. So you have everybody from Newlon [Housing Trust], to Circle 33. Plus a couple of black-led housing associations like Shian, Kush; that doesn't exist any longer. And Ujima; that doesn't exist any longer. And I’m getting the feeling that all the promises that were made around Holly Street, and the changes that were going to be made… And it won’t be like it was before, the facilities would be there that would make it a proper community… That all started to fall apart. And it's once again becoming an estate where there’s high crime, some antisocial behaviour. I am not too sure, because I don't live on the estate myself, but certainly speaking to some of the residents, they are having difficulty in getting their landlord to listen to them again. So if that is the case, then they would be having difficulty in getting the repairs done, and everything else that flows from that. I might be wrong, but if you look at Holly Street in the next five or six years, we may be again saying “we’ve got to knock it down.”Because it's a sink estate, or it's not being managed properly, or there is too much crime, antisocial behaviour going on there so we have to get rid of them. Let’s hope I am wrong. But what I am seeing now, it looks like what was going on in the past. [24:34]
[Cross Talk]
Q. Can I take you back? When you were sneaking out, going to clubs. You mentioned Blues dances, but was the Four Aces in there? [24:49]
I. There were a number of - as you got to the late 1980s and early 1990s, there was a slight change. And some people made quite a lot of money, they were able to buy their house, and these are the guys that were the entrepreneurs in the entertainment, or the black entertainment industry. They went on to open their own clubs. So you had - I am trying to remember the names, my bag was Blues dances - You had Four Aces, though I didn’t have the money to go to the formal clubs like Four Aces, and like Phebes in Sandringham Road, and all the other clubs that were around. But Four Aces, Phebes, and the biggest and most popular club of all, All Nations. That was the biggest most popular, because it was big. And it was popular because it was open three nights a week. It went on Blues dance hours; at 6 o'clock in the morning, they could still be dancing in All Nations. [26:47]
Now I couldn't understand, everybody else they had to close at 1am or 2am, but All Nations are going on till 6am. It was one of the biggest. I went to All Nations, I know All Nations well. Four Aces wasn't my bag, but I knew it was there. Phebes was…it's like semi-teenage club, you still need to be working to go there, or have a connection with the people. But as well as those clubs, all along Kingsland High Street a range of clubs would open up during that time. So as well as All Nations, Four Aces, and then Phebes you would have all these other clubs. People would come from all over. Black people come from all over London - and white people, I must say, would come from all over London too. Come to Hackney, because Hackney was, I would say, the heart of the entertainment industry for the black community. Or the Afro-Caribbean community. Although on certain nights at All Nations, you would see more Africans than Afro-Caribbean. So it was all good for me. [28:11]
Something in terms of change; so you have the migration from no clubs so you had the Blues dances. And the people who ran the Blues dances successfully paid off the mortgage and took the access capital and opened clubs. The Blues dances, or the venues of Blues dances, became less available - tied in with the council snatching these properties back - with other clubs starting to open up.
But as the clubs opened up, and black people are congregating in greater numbers on the streets of the borough, then the incidents of the police interacting with them increased. What always amazes me, is the attitude of the police - I won’t say just the police, but the authorities) now to clubbers and clubs and licensing. And what it was been[?] to clubbers, clubs and licensing. [29:55]
In those days, whether there was…I know early 2000, gun and knife crime…As soon as there was an incident of a knife or a gun incident outside of nightclub, if black people involved, the police would come in like the hood[?] would come in. And that place won't be up anymore, because they would have their licence taken away. In those days, particularly around Four Aces, if there was a big crowd outside, crowd of black people generally, outside of Four Aces hanging out at Dalston Lane, the police would come in marching. And say that “You are too loud, there is too many people on the streets, sort it out or you are getting your licence taken away.” You will always be getting that.
Clubs found it very difficult to operate, or it was made very difficult for them to continue, because of the attitude of the authorities. If the neighbours wern't complaining about the noise, or people making noise outside slamming doors when they were going home, you had the police complaining about antisocial behaviour and drug taking. You had the level of authority stamping down in terms of breach of licensing conditions. So those clubs started to to die away because of that. [31:30]
And apart from a very shrewd guy who runs the Bar 512, and another guy who runs Visions, there are now hardly any black clubs in Hackney. But amazingly enough, there’s loads of other clubs in Hackney now, came in for the white middle-class. And I think from a Wednesday during a week, if you - somebody that was living in Shoreditch, they told me that every night - but if you start at Shoreditch and walk to Kingsland and take a stroll up to Church Street. Around 90% of the time you would have to walk in the road, because the streets are full of partying, smoking, drinking white middle-class people.
And do you know what? The only people official-looking that is around them are minicab marshals, arranging their transport home. I have yet to see a policeman come and say “Why are you blocking the road?” Or “Why aren’t you letting people be able to walk along the pavement in peace?” I have yet to hear the council say they’re going to close somebody down because they are breaching their licence conditions. The Hackney Gazette is not full of stories of complaint letters, or complaints from local residents, complaining about slamming doors or loud voices or that kind of stuff, which was prevalent when they were black clubs in the borough. [33:36]
In my view, the situation now is antisocial behaviour in crowds and noise in the streets is a lot worse. I can only think that’s because of the client group that these clubs serve. And as the licensing laws have changed, and I don’t think they have changed that much. I know because you’re not able to smoke within building now, you have to have smoking outside, but it's still people gathering outside.
So I see changes taking place and all that. I now say sorry, I can't be part of it. Because all these are young guys, and I am too old to be a part of the new changes taking place. As a matter of the fact, I was walking down Broadway Market. I would never go down there, Broadway Market, you’d think you are in Chelsea. I was walking down Broadway Market, taking the kids home, I would have a little stroll in London Fields Park. And again, London Fields has changed. [35:04]
There was a video camera on a tripod, a guy and a white girl, they were taking pictures. And I said, “Well, what was this for? The bill?” They said “No, we are a travel magazine.” And I said, “Why are you taking pictures of here then?” They said “Well, Broadway Market’s up and coming, and we’re taking pictures of Broadway Market to show, put in our travel magazine.” So I said, “You serious!?” They said, “Yeah.”
So there’s people selling bits of the borough as a good place to come and enjoy yourself (and it is a good place to come enjoy yourself, Broadway Market) throughout the world. Which if you were to look at or just listen to the local news, you’d think that anything bad happened in England, or happens in Britain, happens in Hackney. Always happens in Hackney first, or it’s happened the worst in Hackney. But on the other hand, you’ve got these people who are quite happy to come and take pictures of The Dove and all this going on in Broadway Market, and putting in their travel magazine. And say, “Well if you are living in Ukraine, America or whatever, come here and have fun.” And believe you me they do come here, and they do have fun, because Broadway Market is heaving most nights of the week. [36:41]
And Broadway Market about eighteen years ago was a bit like Wells Street Market. You had a few fruit stalls, a couple of toy stalls and that was it. But now you go down there, you get everything from caviar to bananas. And even the one cafe that used to be there, and the one chicken shop that also sold pizzas that used to be there, it is now…Looking at a place, because you have got restaurants that are more and more plush; Italian, Turkish. Chinese? I don’t know if Chinese - Indian, Spanish. All along the old Broadway Market. It is definitely a place to be on a weekend, if your for that.
The change has also affected the park itself, London Fields. I used to walk through London Fields and be lucky if I saw somebody walking a dog back in the 1980s. Now if the sun is shining, you would be lucky if you can see the grass there’s so many people lying out there, having picnics and whatever. And I say good to them. Amazingly enough having said that, and I thought nobody complained about that. But apparently, there is somebody who is a member of the park user group, who wrote in Hackney Gazette saying, “Oh, what were all these people doing in the park? They’re having their barbecues and burning the grass.” Well I thought the park were meant to be used? Yeah, shame on them for burning the grass, but isn't a park specifically for the people? But yeah, I thought I’d never see that, but yes, there was one person complaining that the park has been used too much. [Laughs] It sure made me laugh. And I see that. [39:28]
But both the change in Broadway Market and London Fields, I see it as a positive change. And I wouldn't want everything to stay the same. I suppose when I sit down and I speak to other Afro-Caribbean friends of mine who are seeing these things happening, I say well really, what we are feeling is probably what white people felt, when we started coming in numbers and changing their culture. You think, is this Hackney? This is not the Hackney I knew. But what would Hackney be if it stayed still and never changed? So I embrace it, the change, myself. As long as there’s a place for everybody to enjoy themselves, and live harmoniously, then change is good.
But there are people within the Afro-Caribbean community that feel that all that is being done, all the change that is taking place is possibly being engineered. I don't know how true that is. Is being engineered to drive or to make Hackney less welcoming to the Afro-Caribbean community. It took away the houses in the 1980s. In the 1990s they took away the clubs and the community centres. In the 1990s it took away some of the club, and most the community centres, and now the remaining few clubs are also being taken away. [41:47]
I am trying to think how many active black run community centres there are. There aren’t many. There is Claudia Jones, but that's now semi-operational since it had a fire. But I know it's having funding problems. The Asian Centre went years ago. ADA; African Development Agency or Hackney African Organisation - that went recently when the council went and sent in the bailiffs and seized back the building. I know Centerprise is struggling, surviving on income support from any statutory organisation. Most of the income comes from the social industry that it has, either the bookshop and the restaurant and the occasional hire that happens there. There aren't any other distinct, active community organisations for specifically Afro-Caribbean people. I suspect this Hackney Caribbean Elders Association at Leswin Road, I know that still exists, but apart from them and Claudia Jones there isn’t much else.
And again, in the 1980s every street had one. There was [inaudible 00:43:52] in Stoke Newington, Hackney Council for Racial Equality. Hackney Ethnic Minority Alliance. And the list goes on. Again over time, all of those for one reason or another, had their funds withdrawn and the people involved in them were restricted or prevented from being involved in organisations, or running organisations. That situation again always made me laugh, in terms of change, and how one section of the community, our section of the community is treated, as opposed to other sections of the community. [44:38]
As an example of that; there is an organisation that is in financial difficulties, so to speak, but it's an official formal organisation. Not run by Afro-Caribbean, or African, or any minority I think. Old Hackney Credit Union. But it went bust or something. But the people involved in it have not been told they can't run anything else. As a matter of fact, everybody who was involved in the Credit Union sits on loads of other committees, and still sit on those other committees, and are still being lauded over etc, etc. But whenever there was a hint of financial irregularity concerning a black organisation, the first thing that happens is auditors go in, and a penny’s out of place, and everything gets stopped. And then the council pulls everything back.
So a recent example, a more distant example just as telling was the history of the Ocean in Mare Street. Before the Ocean opened, it was established as a trust and on the committee were a number of local dignitaries, so to speak. (I am not going to the other one, let’s stick with the Ocean…) Because local dignitaries were involved in the Ocean, it received lots of money. But again, as an organisation, as a trusted charity, it ran into severe financial difficulties and the council had to take control of it, so to speak. Because it was really serious financial difficulties it ran into. [47:11]
But again, all the dignitaries that are involved in running that organisation, their financial integrity or honesty was never questioned. And they all just went on to do whatever they wanted in terms of being involved in an organisation, or setting up new organisation, etc. And that's always been a source of amusement to me as why that would happen.
So as a community, we started off, we came with nothing. We, through agitation and campaigning, ended up with a reasonable range of services, etc. And over time, all that is has gone. And I don't know whether that was a conscious decision by the council or the government or whatever. Certainly, the indications are that there was some kind of strategy to it, because I have all those organisations. Some of them must have been doing something good. They couldn’t all have been bad. And if that's the case, why aren’t they still here, doing good etc? Or just even been mainstreamed? But now they have just been wiped out altogether. [49:05]
Even the supplementary schools that used to be there are now gone. And I don’t know if Claudia Jones still runs their supplementary school now. I suspect they probably don't, or if they do fund it, it will be severely reduced. Then all the work around Afro-Caribbean education achievement, and particularly black boys, will not be progressed so to speak. So I fear for the black boys who are in primary school now, given that - OK, so they say education or the exam standards have been lowered so it's easier to pass. But I was watching Dragons’ Den…I was saying this for a couple of parents that were in Afro-Caribbean community. They need to make sure that their children study, and study hard. And leave, enter the world of work with a significant qualification like a degree.
I was watching Dragons’ Den this week, and there was a 21 year old woman came on. And she had this brilliant idea, about setting up a website that would bring these people together and sell things, and she would make millions. And as soon as she said “I was at Uni, but I have left Uni to run this business.” I knew what was going to happen, or I suspected I knew what was going to happen. And, amazingly enough, all of them said “Beautiful, brilliant idea. Slightly flawed, brilliant idea, slightly flawed. I’m not going to invest in you. You are brilliant person, you will succeed, but I am not going to invest in you.” There is a tall one in Dragon's Den, not Duncan Bannatyne but the tall one, the other one. His parting shot was “When you finish Uni, when you want a job, email me.” So she was settled. And Duncan Bannatyne laid it on the table. He said “I left school without any qualifications. I made a million and I became successful anyway, but I wish I’d gone to university.” He said to her “Don't worry about the job, about this business. Go back to university, get your degree, and then come back and do what you want to do.” I knew that's exactly what he was going to say. [52:14]
So if these are entrepreneurs who have made it without a qualification, they’re now running businesses, what they want to see sitting before them, in terms of employing somebody, is somebody with a qualification. So all these parents I am telling them, the minimum qualification you want from your child is a degree. Otherwise, they are not going to get anywhere. And when I see all the supplementary schools that would be supporting black children, that they are always behind in the education, being pulled apart and ripped down, it's not good. It means that parents are going to have to be working even harder with their children to make sure they leave education with something that will put them in good stead to be what they can be. You know the slogans, most of these schools around here, “Be the best you can be.” Well…
I mean, I left school with a couple of A levels. I know that if I’d had a degree it would have been a lot easier for me. I was able to get through…when I left school, apprenticeships were running and I did my engineering apprenticeship. And I got my semi degree that way, through studying and day release etc. Nowadays, employers want you to come out of school with a degree, because they are not going to be investing in kids that way, or they don't have time to invest in kids the way previous employers did. So that’s another change I have noticed from growing up in the 1960s to now. [54:39]
Q. Tell us about what you see in youth and what you see of schools and how they have changed? [55:21]
Because I am not that connected with schools as a pupil, I can’t really see how they have changed. But speaking to children who go to school, and seeing the school results, it does seem like the exams are getting easier. I did my first A-level when I was 15. A-level art, but I did my first A-level when I was 15. When I talk to my children, I say “If you’re that bright, why don’t you do your A-Levels now?” “You don’t get put in for it, you can't do A-level.” “What do you mean you can't do A-level?” If you were bright you just did it. He said “No.” You can't do A levels, or the equivalent available, until you're in Sixth Form. I didn’t know that was the case. And if that is the case, why is it the case? If a child is bright enough just let him do it. I don't know whether it's government policy, school policy, or whatever. But it just seems wrong to me. If you have a bright child and they are able to do A-level early then let him do it. And so that's one change of note. In terms of play and interaction, I don't think anything much has changed. I think maybe things should have changed, but I don’t think much has changed in terms of schooling.
In terms of young people, oh lord. I don't know where it happened or why it happened, but the teenagers nowadays appear to me and people of my generation to have little or no drive. No willingness to do anything for themselves. I left the Caribbean when I was six. And I remember when I was six in the Caribbean making a go cart. Getting all the wood and the wheel and knocking it together and making it. And it worked. In this country, if you want something, you go to your mum and your dad and say “Well there is a magazine, buy it for me.” And I can’t get my head around that. [58:34]
When we were growing up in this country, when we came to this country and I was growing up in this country, there wasn't a lot to do. And when we decided there wasn't a lot to do - we went to church anyway - but when we decided there wasn't a lot to do, we found something to do. We made things happen. One of the things we made happened was our own entertainment. We - because the boys clubs wouldn't let us in, you know, whatever, as Afro-Caribbean boys - Wherever there was an empty hall, we knew the vicar. We would go to the vicar and say “Well, yes sir, Minister, we would like to have this hall on a Friday, Tuesday or Thursday night and have a club for us and our friends.” And very few of the vicars ever said no.
In Hackney back in those days, during the week for 14 to 18 year olds there was always something to do. And whenever you went there, it was being run by 14 to 18 year olds. It was Richmond Road, the church in Daubeney, the church in Manor Club in Manor Road. Every church hall there was, there was something going on for young people, being run by young people. And my head just glazes over, my mind just glazes over when you hear these kids who have got PlayStation, the Internet and all the iPods and all these other gadgets walking around the road saying “There is nothing to do.” I can't fathom it. Like I said, when we was growing up, we did it ourselves. And this amazing amount of skills you learned from doing it yourselves. [1:01:13]
The first thing was that you would have young boys who are now DJs, and making money in the commercial world; they started off with a turntable and three vinyl records in a church hall. And you would end up with a competition between sound systems, and you would get people who were in your group, who were good at carpentry, you said “Well, you build the speakers”. People who had a leaning towards, say electricity or electronics, you would get them to build your amp, buy your speakers. And people who had a good ear for music, they would be the selector and they would go and buy you records. And you developed skills that way.
But nowadays these guy that just walk up and down the street and say “There is nothing to do.” I don't understand it, really don’t. Because like I said from when I was six, I was making my own entertainment. Either building go karts, spinning tops. Cutting the leaves of aloe vera plants, slicing them into four and platting them to make a whip just to entertain yourself. It's amazing what we used there. This is me, between age of four and six, doing all these things; taking a sharp knife, getting the lump of wood, whittling it down to form of spinning top, knocking and nailing it to make a point, getting a bit of string. And I have got a toy that would last me a lifetime. [1:03:37]
Being shown by my older brother, if you split it and made two and shave off match heads and put it in the middle. When you span it, wrap the twine around it, you span and dropped, it would go off with a bang. And we did all these things at the age of five or six. Nowadays, you give a five or six year old child in this country a ball bearing wheel and lumps of wood, they wouldn’t know what to do with it. Wouldn’t know what to do with it.
If you told some of these guys, these teenagers, to build a sound system, they wouldn’t know where to start, they wouldn't know where to start. I don't think they will even know how to go about finding out either. Which for me is like soul destroying. Because there is so much to do if you want to not sit back and wait for it to be done to you. And trying to get this instilled into the children or the young people I come across, it's not easy either. I really don't know where or why this malaise has come into teenage culture, where they just sit back and then want everything done for them. They’re not prepared to sit down or get their hands dirty and do things for themselves. I think unless that changes things are just going to get worse and worse for them. They will end up old men, old women, having done nothing all their lives. Just feed me, feed me. Like Little Shop of Horrors. [Laughs]
[Part 2 of 2: Summary of interview]
Disc 2 [00:00:12] Race relations in childhood: Primary school fussed over as something unusual, few Black kids play with White majority. By Secondary school companions changed – many more Afro-Caribbeans – only Black playmates out of school.
Disc 2 [00:02:39] Race Relations: First job draughtsman/structural engineer, White employers – Race no issue.
Disc 2 [00:07:27] Race Relations in housing: Good 1st hand description of living in ‘notorious’ Holly Street Estate. Bryar Court (last to be knocked down). White estate officer refused to repair leak in their flat. After struggle council repaired it.
Disc 2 [00:10:17] Race Relations in second job: racist encounter with White Housing Officer paid 3 times his salary prompts him to seek job in council. [00:10:34] Good story of job as Estate Manager in Hackney – Stamford Hill. Quickly aware of racism in workplace for first time: jobs withheld from Black staff, particularly managerial. [00:11:52] CRE report racist allocations policy at Holly street. [00:12:25] Council leader, Andrew Puddephatt forces Equal Opps in recruitment and training. Creates Race Relations Unit, .Dan Thea leader, puts ‘Race Advisors’ in all council departments – to address balance in interviews etc.
Disc 2 [00:13:51] Race Relations in council: White staff complain Race Relations policy discriminates against them. Battle between Whites and anyone associated with Race Relations Unit. Unions fail to resolve. [00:14:51] He was involved through UNISON/ NALGO Black Members Groups. [00:15:42] Council sheds Black staff by constant restructuring “So as fast as the Race Relations Unit was opening the door for Black workers, the organization was shoving them out the back door. So you never have a critical mass of Black workers within Hackney to make a difference”.
NALGP describes this as ‘ethnic cleansing’.
Disc 2 [00:16:55] Race Relations in council: workforce diversity now at early 90s level - “Anywhere the public interfaces with the organization, you’ll see Black faces”.
Disc 2 [00:19:00] Race relations in Hackney society: School days, White myth that being Black equaled being good at fighting. Whites schoolmates always trying to get him into fights with other Black boys.
Disc 2 [00:20:23] Good story of school/ gang rivalries between his Hackney mates and Mile End school/gangs: Not racial. Just Hackney school tribe. Bats, bludgeons and occasional knife to cut not stab. Not deadly or violence of today.
Disc 2 [00:22:44] Race Relations, awareness of SUS laws: Lots of friends being stopped a lot. He was always on street because no car – only stopped twice, mild encounters. [00:24:54] Death of Colin Roach in Stoke Newington Police station a big issue – big campaign. [00:25:18] Good contextualization of big campaigning after Colin Roach’s death then and relatively little Black response to Black on Black crime now.
Disc 2 [00:27:29] Race relations, experience within the Black community: Good explanations of former organisations serving diversity communities: Move to centralised multi-function equality department, cuts Race and Equality support to ethnic minorities. [00:30:31] Good explanation of very effective Hackney Race Equality Council: in old Dudley’s building opposite Centreprise. On death of leader funding cut.
Disc 2 [00:32:53] Church and Hackney’s Afro-Caribbean community: “I have a solid relationship with God, and a strange relationship with church”. Catholic in Caribbean. Then Methodist in UK. Now Anglican. [00:34:37] Good story of how Methodist church experience, like experience of West Indians coming to UK: “Some were welcoming, but quite a few weren’t”. Black Christians form own churches – front rooms etc. [00:35:58] Good story of first church, Methodist in Mare street, now Ocean: Defiant parents not put off. Church became ‘Black’ with White minister Mr. Newby – allowed them to run youth club. Home from home. [00:38:36] Good story of church after move to Holly Street estate: Black-dominated Methodist church on Richmond Road. [00:39:44] Good explanation change for churches is now mainly Black congregations. More and more Black ministers. “Back in the 60s you would not of seen that. Even if you had a large Black congregation…”
Disc 2 [00:45:52] Good stories of Ridley Road changes: Worked as (summer) ‘barrow boy in market. Fruit and veg stall. Saw other side. Got perks. [00:46:50] Good story of shopping in Ridley as West Indian social centre: walking in his mother’s wake as she strolled meeting and chatting with friends. Waiting outside her favourite supermarket, many West Indian parents inflicted the same “A row of downcast-looking boys shuffling from one foot to the other like penguins in the snow, lined up against the shop window… We were all waiting for our parents to finish their shopping so we could drag the baskets home” [00:49:51] All stalls run by White people then. Amazed Whites knew about Black food. Litter not dirty then. Dirty now. [00:51:40] Since late 90s shops and stalls run by Black and Asian entrepreneurs. Early years only Black entrepreneur ‘Dyke and Dryden’. [00:54:15] Brixton market: Lots of friends and peers go there “But Ridley’s enough for me”. Mum bought meat and veg in Ridley and tinned goods in Well Street.
Disc 2 [00:56:45] Childhood chores: Good story of buying paraffin. Pre-central heating days. Weekly Paraffin truck. Or shop in Well Street if they ran out.
Disc 2 [01:00:18] Childhood chores: Good explanation of helping mum with shopping Saturdays or Fridays – “Dad was always working”
Disc 2 [01:01:18] Changes along Kingsland High Street today: New Station good. More mobile phones. Only Falkners fish and chips. Knew 6-7 cinemas. [01:05:02] Good story of seeing Kung Fu films at Odeon with teenage Black friends – “Came out and everybody was Kung Fu fighting. Then you’d go to All Nations, ‘Kung Fu’ fighting would come on, and you’d do it all over again”. Kingsland High Street much same. A lot more fruit and veg stalls.
Disc 2 [01:11:46] Good observations of African immigrants: First noticed among All Nations crowd. girls joke about standard African chat up line “Have I seen you somewhere before? [01:14:37] African entrepreneurship – grocers, material, mobile phones - where Afro-Caribbeans happy to be consumers.
Disc 2 [01:18:37] Today’s Black gun and knife crime issue: formerly seen as Afro-Caribbean/Jamaican problem. Now facts show just as many African boys involved – victims and perpetrators.
Disc 2 [01:21:13] Good observation of late 90s shift where majority of Black council workers go from Caribbean to African. Generally in particular housing, income collection, housing benefits. Some Afro-Caribbeans feel pushed out by new arrivals. African workers mistrusted and dismissed.
Disc 2 [01:24:08] Biggest change he’s noticed in Hackney socially is gentrification by White middle class arrivals. And development of services and facilities for them.
Q. Can you introduce yourself? [00:11]
I. Yeah, my name is [Redacted]. I was born in Montserrat, a small island in the Caribbean. I came to England in 1964, straight to Hackney from Kinsale, to live about Hackney. And I have lived in Hackney ever since.
This Olympics thing, I think the biggest change is going to be around what happens to the Hackney Marshes. Whether it's the bit that they concrete over for the car park, whether they get grassed over again, and the people at borough and the surrounding area will be able to play Sunday football there again. Other than that, I don't think the Olympics is going to have any, leave any legacy for the borough.
I understand -what’s today, is the 15th of September? And I understand the 2012 website goes live today. And guess what? If you live in Hackney, you can apply to be a volunteer! Work for free. Which isn't what people were expecting. The promises were that when the Olympics comes there will be jobs for everybody. If you were in the art and cultural industries, opportunities were endless, in terms of being able to get involved and either perform at the opening ceremony or the closing ceremony, and entertaining the visitors and the athletes during the four weeks of the Olympics. That was the promise.
Now we are seeing the reality. Which is, if you come and give your time for free, you may be able to see some of the show or be in the stadium. But I suspect that, given that they are looking for 70 odd thousand volunteers, the closest most of the people in Hackney will get is directing traffic in the coach park on the Hackney Marshes. That’s what I think the Olympics is going to have for Hackney. [3:30]
When I came to Hackney in 1964, the first thing as a young boy from the Caribbean that struck me was the cold, and the ‘fog’ I used to call it. Now everybody says, “No it's not fog, it's smog”, because it had lots of other things in it, it was real pea soup, some people died and stuff. But that's my first memory of coming to England and the borough. And travelling on a number 6 Routemaster up Wells Street. I used to go shopping with my mom on a Saturday. It's my first memory of the borough, how cold it was. It wasn't, again, it wasn't as promised. I spent the first three weeks walking along the road, the roads of the borough, looking for this gold that's supposed to be in the streets. Well all I could see was snow, when the smog had cleared of course, all I could see was snow.
First day at school was eventful as well. There were three of us, three boys, me and my two brothers, [names redacted]. All of us went to Orchard Junior Mix, as it was then, in Wells Street. Our first day there was eventful. My parents packed us off with a school bag and sharpened pencils and paper to write on. And we were one amongst the few Afro-Caribbean children in the school at that time. And I should say we were fussed over a lot. Mainly by girls, which was quite pleasant. But also by boys, who just wanted to touch your hair and touch your face, and asking if your colour washed off. That kind of stuff. [6:06]
Some of my early memory of schooling in England was a pleasant one. We were seen as novelties. And yes, it was not like it is now, so to speak. However, as more and more Afro-Caribbean children came, we became less of a novelty. And I don’t know whether the other children or the teachers saw the numbers as a threat, in terms of what they were used to. But the feeling that we got from the teachers and other indigenous children was different, it was not as welcoming or as warm. Not as probing. So things started to change that way.
I think I remember correctly, I was in one of the top streams in primary and secondary school. I would have a tug of conscience when I’m in the classroom. One of only two other black boys in, we had got black girls as well, I was only one of the only two black boys in the classroom. And I always remember this phrase that the other kids would say, is that “You are just like one of us.” I didn't understand what that meant, but it’s not me. When I went in the playground and there was a wider mix of children and more Afro-Caribbean people, they would all want me to play with them. But I wanted to play with the friends in my class, and there was that tug. And that carried on right through to secondary school. [8:48]
However, outside of school when I was in primary school, the class, all the white friends I’d made in class, we would meet up. And either go and play and wander the streets. And play in either Wells Street Common or Victoria Park, which was managed by Hackney at the time.
Young kids during those days, getting from your house or your friend's house, to the common or the park - there was endless opportunities for mischief. One of the bits of mischief that was obligatory in getting from one location to the other was playing ‘Knock Down Ginger.’ So between either Wells Street or Kings Hall Road. A number of people will be disturbed by a group of boys and girls who would knock on their door and run away. And you know what? we got to our destination a lot quicker [Laughs] than we would otherwise. [10:20]
But as we all grew old and started secondary school, I think that changed. In the school, in class, I would be amongst the majority of white children. In the playground, I would be split between the two. But out of school, when I started reaching the end of secondary school, the only friends I associated with were Afro-Caribbean children, boys and girls. I don't know why that was. I don't think it was a conscious choice on my part, because I would play with anybody, it just didn't happen. The people that knocked on your door, or was in when you knocked, were other Afro-Caribbean children.
I got into doing things that other Afro-Caribbean kids did at the time. Which was sneaking out of your home against your mother or father’s instructions to go clubbing. And in those days, there weren't many clubs, the formal clubs that played some type of music Afro-Caribbean people would like, Reggae, Blues, etc. So the Afro-Caribbean community created their own clubs. My view is that that came out of two things, probably for two reasons. Either clubs weren't there, the formal clubs weren’t there. And the houses (and they were generally in houses), the houses where the informal clubs were, were created because the person needed the money to pay the mortgage. [12:39]
In Hackney at the time, I think there was St. Thomas’s Square, just off Wells Street, corner of Mare Street. There was four houses that had regular Blues dances, as we would call it. St. Mark’s Rise. I think every other house, and the bits of Sandringham Road that ran into St. Mark’s Rise, would have Blues dances. The south end of Hackney, Victoria Park side, it was Cadogan Terrace. Again, a string of row houses that would have Blues dances.
When this was starting, in the early days, all the properties were owned by the people. And they would have rent out their basements to have these dances. These houses were not small and would have three-four floors and a basement, generally dilapidated, but they weren’t wrecks. [14:16]
As time went on, the Blues dance, the location of Blues dances changed. And in the late 1990s, they tend to be in derelict property or semi-derelict property. Where they would break-in for the evening and turn on the electricity and then have the dance that way.
I later found out that there was a method to the madness, and all of other people who owned the properties were living in what were called Housing Action Areas. These were areas set up by local authorities to clear the area of slums, so to speak. What I found out later in life was that what was happening was, these areas would be set up and the officers that ran these would go to the owners - who were generally black - and say that they needed to bring their property up to a specific standard in a specific time, and didn't offer them any help in terms of doing it. But what they did offer them was to compulsory purchase it, or buy it from them and offer them a nice, new accommodation in a council estate with internal toilet, all the amenities that you would want. [16:16]
And generally, when these homeowners were faced with either spending a great deal of money that they didn't have, or living in something already prepared for them and getting some money in their hand, and they generally took it. And now if you went along to St. Thomas's Square, Cadogan Terrace, St. Mark’s Rise, you would see these houses for sale, the same houses that you used to have Blues dances in. They sell for millions of pounds. Or if not million, a half million, or a quarter million pounds. That’s because the council bought them, did nothing with them, sold them at auction to property developers, whatever, and they have been sold and now are worth what they are.
So all these Afro-Caribbean people - who came to this country early, saved hard to buy properties because nobody would let them live in their rented property - had all these assets taken from them and offered gold in the streets obviously, in terms of living on an estate. I think this is a crime, really. [18:04]
I don't know if you know, but in the 1980s, Holly Street, Hackney, were notorious. Because one of the estates that were promised to these families was Holly Street Estate, to these property owners was Holly Street Estate. Holly Street Estate was new, it was a new design in living, it won awards. It was offered to these families. And I don't know whether… I haven’t done any research around this, but I certainly believe that it was offered to these families, because the white families didn't want it. Because who wanted to live in a ‘street in the sky’, so to speak? A hospital corridor, which is basically what they were. Snake blocks that went on for miles. Get in one end, you didn't see the sky over the street for half a mile down the road. But Black people were offered these.
And when the majority of people that were living on this estate, was found to be ethnic minority, (well obviously, there wasn’t just Afro-Caribbean ethnic minority), the council amazingly forgot about it. And these tenants found it almost impossible to get transfers, impossible to get repairs done. And the estate went from bad to worse to the extent that it became a sink estate. [20:06]
Somebody made a complaint and the Commission for Racial Equality did an investigation into the allocations policy at the borough and found that - amazingly enough - that Hackney's allocations policy in terms of Holly Street was racist. And that Hackney was intentionally offering this estate to black people over white people. There was a big debate in the council, I remember it clearly. There was a big debate in the council, whether the council should do nothing or give compensation to all the black families that were living on the estate for being allocated substandard property. In the end, the council did nothing, because there were arguments about what level of compensation do you give to somebody who had just lived there for 10 minutes? Or lived there for five years? Or whatever. Do you also compensate the white people who were still living there? Because some white people were still living there. So eventually the council did nothing. But that was a fact; that the council allocated one of the worst estates, or turned out to be one of the worst estates, in the borough to black people.
That estate was eventually knocked down and in its place are houses with gardens, which is what people wanted initially. And guess what? They are managed by a range of social landlords. So you have everybody from Newlon [Housing Trust], to Circle 33. Plus a couple of black-led housing associations like Shian, Kush; that doesn't exist any longer. And Ujima; that doesn't exist any longer. And I’m getting the feeling that all the promises that were made around Holly Street, and the changes that were going to be made… And it won’t be like it was before, the facilities would be there that would make it a proper community… That all started to fall apart. And it's once again becoming an estate where there’s high crime, some antisocial behaviour. I am not too sure, because I don't live on the estate myself, but certainly speaking to some of the residents, they are having difficulty in getting their landlord to listen to them again. So if that is the case, then they would be having difficulty in getting the repairs done, and everything else that flows from that. I might be wrong, but if you look at Holly Street in the next five or six years, we may be again saying “we’ve got to knock it down.”Because it's a sink estate, or it's not being managed properly, or there is too much crime, antisocial behaviour going on there so we have to get rid of them. Let’s hope I am wrong. But what I am seeing now, it looks like what was going on in the past. [24:34]
[Cross Talk]
Q. Can I take you back? When you were sneaking out, going to clubs. You mentioned Blues dances, but was the Four Aces in there? [24:49]
I. There were a number of - as you got to the late 1980s and early 1990s, there was a slight change. And some people made quite a lot of money, they were able to buy their house, and these are the guys that were the entrepreneurs in the entertainment, or the black entertainment industry. They went on to open their own clubs. So you had - I am trying to remember the names, my bag was Blues dances - You had Four Aces, though I didn’t have the money to go to the formal clubs like Four Aces, and like Phebes in Sandringham Road, and all the other clubs that were around. But Four Aces, Phebes, and the biggest and most popular club of all, All Nations. That was the biggest most popular, because it was big. And it was popular because it was open three nights a week. It went on Blues dance hours; at 6 o'clock in the morning, they could still be dancing in All Nations. [26:47]
Now I couldn't understand, everybody else they had to close at 1am or 2am, but All Nations are going on till 6am. It was one of the biggest. I went to All Nations, I know All Nations well. Four Aces wasn't my bag, but I knew it was there. Phebes was…it's like semi-teenage club, you still need to be working to go there, or have a connection with the people. But as well as those clubs, all along Kingsland High Street a range of clubs would open up during that time. So as well as All Nations, Four Aces, and then Phebes you would have all these other clubs. People would come from all over. Black people come from all over London - and white people, I must say, would come from all over London too. Come to Hackney, because Hackney was, I would say, the heart of the entertainment industry for the black community. Or the Afro-Caribbean community. Although on certain nights at All Nations, you would see more Africans than Afro-Caribbean. So it was all good for me. [28:11]
Something in terms of change; so you have the migration from no clubs so you had the Blues dances. And the people who ran the Blues dances successfully paid off the mortgage and took the access capital and opened clubs. The Blues dances, or the venues of Blues dances, became less available - tied in with the council snatching these properties back - with other clubs starting to open up.
But as the clubs opened up, and black people are congregating in greater numbers on the streets of the borough, then the incidents of the police interacting with them increased. What always amazes me, is the attitude of the police - I won’t say just the police, but the authorities) now to clubbers and clubs and licensing. And what it was been[?] to clubbers, clubs and licensing. [29:55]
In those days, whether there was…I know early 2000, gun and knife crime…As soon as there was an incident of a knife or a gun incident outside of nightclub, if black people involved, the police would come in like the hood[?] would come in. And that place won't be up anymore, because they would have their licence taken away. In those days, particularly around Four Aces, if there was a big crowd outside, crowd of black people generally, outside of Four Aces hanging out at Dalston Lane, the police would come in marching. And say that “You are too loud, there is too many people on the streets, sort it out or you are getting your licence taken away.” You will always be getting that.
Clubs found it very difficult to operate, or it was made very difficult for them to continue, because of the attitude of the authorities. If the neighbours wern't complaining about the noise, or people making noise outside slamming doors when they were going home, you had the police complaining about antisocial behaviour and drug taking. You had the level of authority stamping down in terms of breach of licensing conditions. So those clubs started to to die away because of that. [31:30]
And apart from a very shrewd guy who runs the Bar 512, and another guy who runs Visions, there are now hardly any black clubs in Hackney. But amazingly enough, there’s loads of other clubs in Hackney now, came in for the white middle-class. And I think from a Wednesday during a week, if you - somebody that was living in Shoreditch, they told me that every night - but if you start at Shoreditch and walk to Kingsland and take a stroll up to Church Street. Around 90% of the time you would have to walk in the road, because the streets are full of partying, smoking, drinking white middle-class people.
And do you know what? The only people official-looking that is around them are minicab marshals, arranging their transport home. I have yet to see a policeman come and say “Why are you blocking the road?” Or “Why aren’t you letting people be able to walk along the pavement in peace?” I have yet to hear the council say they’re going to close somebody down because they are breaching their licence conditions. The Hackney Gazette is not full of stories of complaint letters, or complaints from local residents, complaining about slamming doors or loud voices or that kind of stuff, which was prevalent when they were black clubs in the borough. [33:36]
In my view, the situation now is antisocial behaviour in crowds and noise in the streets is a lot worse. I can only think that’s because of the client group that these clubs serve. And as the licensing laws have changed, and I don’t think they have changed that much. I know because you’re not able to smoke within building now, you have to have smoking outside, but it's still people gathering outside.
So I see changes taking place and all that. I now say sorry, I can't be part of it. Because all these are young guys, and I am too old to be a part of the new changes taking place. As a matter of the fact, I was walking down Broadway Market. I would never go down there, Broadway Market, you’d think you are in Chelsea. I was walking down Broadway Market, taking the kids home, I would have a little stroll in London Fields Park. And again, London Fields has changed. [35:04]
There was a video camera on a tripod, a guy and a white girl, they were taking pictures. And I said, “Well, what was this for? The bill?” They said “No, we are a travel magazine.” And I said, “Why are you taking pictures of here then?” They said “Well, Broadway Market’s up and coming, and we’re taking pictures of Broadway Market to show, put in our travel magazine.” So I said, “You serious!?” They said, “Yeah.”
So there’s people selling bits of the borough as a good place to come and enjoy yourself (and it is a good place to come enjoy yourself, Broadway Market) throughout the world. Which if you were to look at or just listen to the local news, you’d think that anything bad happened in England, or happens in Britain, happens in Hackney. Always happens in Hackney first, or it’s happened the worst in Hackney. But on the other hand, you’ve got these people who are quite happy to come and take pictures of The Dove and all this going on in Broadway Market, and putting in their travel magazine. And say, “Well if you are living in Ukraine, America or whatever, come here and have fun.” And believe you me they do come here, and they do have fun, because Broadway Market is heaving most nights of the week. [36:41]
And Broadway Market about eighteen years ago was a bit like Wells Street Market. You had a few fruit stalls, a couple of toy stalls and that was it. But now you go down there, you get everything from caviar to bananas. And even the one cafe that used to be there, and the one chicken shop that also sold pizzas that used to be there, it is now…Looking at a place, because you have got restaurants that are more and more plush; Italian, Turkish. Chinese? I don’t know if Chinese - Indian, Spanish. All along the old Broadway Market. It is definitely a place to be on a weekend, if your for that.
The change has also affected the park itself, London Fields. I used to walk through London Fields and be lucky if I saw somebody walking a dog back in the 1980s. Now if the sun is shining, you would be lucky if you can see the grass there’s so many people lying out there, having picnics and whatever. And I say good to them. Amazingly enough having said that, and I thought nobody complained about that. But apparently, there is somebody who is a member of the park user group, who wrote in Hackney Gazette saying, “Oh, what were all these people doing in the park? They’re having their barbecues and burning the grass.” Well I thought the park were meant to be used? Yeah, shame on them for burning the grass, but isn't a park specifically for the people? But yeah, I thought I’d never see that, but yes, there was one person complaining that the park has been used too much. [Laughs] It sure made me laugh. And I see that. [39:28]
But both the change in Broadway Market and London Fields, I see it as a positive change. And I wouldn't want everything to stay the same. I suppose when I sit down and I speak to other Afro-Caribbean friends of mine who are seeing these things happening, I say well really, what we are feeling is probably what white people felt, when we started coming in numbers and changing their culture. You think, is this Hackney? This is not the Hackney I knew. But what would Hackney be if it stayed still and never changed? So I embrace it, the change, myself. As long as there’s a place for everybody to enjoy themselves, and live harmoniously, then change is good.
But there are people within the Afro-Caribbean community that feel that all that is being done, all the change that is taking place is possibly being engineered. I don't know how true that is. Is being engineered to drive or to make Hackney less welcoming to the Afro-Caribbean community. It took away the houses in the 1980s. In the 1990s they took away the clubs and the community centres. In the 1990s it took away some of the club, and most the community centres, and now the remaining few clubs are also being taken away. [41:47]
I am trying to think how many active black run community centres there are. There aren’t many. There is Claudia Jones, but that's now semi-operational since it had a fire. But I know it's having funding problems. The Asian Centre went years ago. ADA; African Development Agency or Hackney African Organisation - that went recently when the council went and sent in the bailiffs and seized back the building. I know Centerprise is struggling, surviving on income support from any statutory organisation. Most of the income comes from the social industry that it has, either the bookshop and the restaurant and the occasional hire that happens there. There aren't any other distinct, active community organisations for specifically Afro-Caribbean people. I suspect this Hackney Caribbean Elders Association at Leswin Road, I know that still exists, but apart from them and Claudia Jones there isn’t much else.
And again, in the 1980s every street had one. There was [inaudible 00:43:52] in Stoke Newington, Hackney Council for Racial Equality. Hackney Ethnic Minority Alliance. And the list goes on. Again over time, all of those for one reason or another, had their funds withdrawn and the people involved in them were restricted or prevented from being involved in organisations, or running organisations. That situation again always made me laugh, in terms of change, and how one section of the community, our section of the community is treated, as opposed to other sections of the community. [44:38]
As an example of that; there is an organisation that is in financial difficulties, so to speak, but it's an official formal organisation. Not run by Afro-Caribbean, or African, or any minority I think. Old Hackney Credit Union. But it went bust or something. But the people involved in it have not been told they can't run anything else. As a matter of fact, everybody who was involved in the Credit Union sits on loads of other committees, and still sit on those other committees, and are still being lauded over etc, etc. But whenever there was a hint of financial irregularity concerning a black organisation, the first thing that happens is auditors go in, and a penny’s out of place, and everything gets stopped. And then the council pulls everything back.
So a recent example, a more distant example just as telling was the history of the Ocean in Mare Street. Before the Ocean opened, it was established as a trust and on the committee were a number of local dignitaries, so to speak. (I am not going to the other one, let’s stick with the Ocean…) Because local dignitaries were involved in the Ocean, it received lots of money. But again, as an organisation, as a trusted charity, it ran into severe financial difficulties and the council had to take control of it, so to speak. Because it was really serious financial difficulties it ran into. [47:11]
But again, all the dignitaries that are involved in running that organisation, their financial integrity or honesty was never questioned. And they all just went on to do whatever they wanted in terms of being involved in an organisation, or setting up new organisation, etc. And that's always been a source of amusement to me as why that would happen.
So as a community, we started off, we came with nothing. We, through agitation and campaigning, ended up with a reasonable range of services, etc. And over time, all that is has gone. And I don't know whether that was a conscious decision by the council or the government or whatever. Certainly, the indications are that there was some kind of strategy to it, because I have all those organisations. Some of them must have been doing something good. They couldn’t all have been bad. And if that's the case, why aren’t they still here, doing good etc? Or just even been mainstreamed? But now they have just been wiped out altogether. [49:05]
Even the supplementary schools that used to be there are now gone. And I don’t know if Claudia Jones still runs their supplementary school now. I suspect they probably don't, or if they do fund it, it will be severely reduced. Then all the work around Afro-Caribbean education achievement, and particularly black boys, will not be progressed so to speak. So I fear for the black boys who are in primary school now, given that - OK, so they say education or the exam standards have been lowered so it's easier to pass. But I was watching Dragons’ Den…I was saying this for a couple of parents that were in Afro-Caribbean community. They need to make sure that their children study, and study hard. And leave, enter the world of work with a significant qualification like a degree.
I was watching Dragons’ Den this week, and there was a 21 year old woman came on. And she had this brilliant idea, about setting up a website that would bring these people together and sell things, and she would make millions. And as soon as she said “I was at Uni, but I have left Uni to run this business.” I knew what was going to happen, or I suspected I knew what was going to happen. And, amazingly enough, all of them said “Beautiful, brilliant idea. Slightly flawed, brilliant idea, slightly flawed. I’m not going to invest in you. You are brilliant person, you will succeed, but I am not going to invest in you.” There is a tall one in Dragon's Den, not Duncan Bannatyne but the tall one, the other one. His parting shot was “When you finish Uni, when you want a job, email me.” So she was settled. And Duncan Bannatyne laid it on the table. He said “I left school without any qualifications. I made a million and I became successful anyway, but I wish I’d gone to university.” He said to her “Don't worry about the job, about this business. Go back to university, get your degree, and then come back and do what you want to do.” I knew that's exactly what he was going to say. [52:14]
So if these are entrepreneurs who have made it without a qualification, they’re now running businesses, what they want to see sitting before them, in terms of employing somebody, is somebody with a qualification. So all these parents I am telling them, the minimum qualification you want from your child is a degree. Otherwise, they are not going to get anywhere. And when I see all the supplementary schools that would be supporting black children, that they are always behind in the education, being pulled apart and ripped down, it's not good. It means that parents are going to have to be working even harder with their children to make sure they leave education with something that will put them in good stead to be what they can be. You know the slogans, most of these schools around here, “Be the best you can be.” Well…
I mean, I left school with a couple of A levels. I know that if I’d had a degree it would have been a lot easier for me. I was able to get through…when I left school, apprenticeships were running and I did my engineering apprenticeship. And I got my semi degree that way, through studying and day release etc. Nowadays, employers want you to come out of school with a degree, because they are not going to be investing in kids that way, or they don't have time to invest in kids the way previous employers did. So that’s another change I have noticed from growing up in the 1960s to now. [54:39]
Q. Tell us about what you see in youth and what you see of schools and how they have changed? [55:21]
Because I am not that connected with schools as a pupil, I can’t really see how they have changed. But speaking to children who go to school, and seeing the school results, it does seem like the exams are getting easier. I did my first A-level when I was 15. A-level art, but I did my first A-level when I was 15. When I talk to my children, I say “If you’re that bright, why don’t you do your A-Levels now?” “You don’t get put in for it, you can't do A-level.” “What do you mean you can't do A-level?” If you were bright you just did it. He said “No.” You can't do A levels, or the equivalent available, until you're in Sixth Form. I didn’t know that was the case. And if that is the case, why is it the case? If a child is bright enough just let him do it. I don't know whether it's government policy, school policy, or whatever. But it just seems wrong to me. If you have a bright child and they are able to do A-level early then let him do it. And so that's one change of note. In terms of play and interaction, I don't think anything much has changed. I think maybe things should have changed, but I don’t think much has changed in terms of schooling.
In terms of young people, oh lord. I don't know where it happened or why it happened, but the teenagers nowadays appear to me and people of my generation to have little or no drive. No willingness to do anything for themselves. I left the Caribbean when I was six. And I remember when I was six in the Caribbean making a go cart. Getting all the wood and the wheel and knocking it together and making it. And it worked. In this country, if you want something, you go to your mum and your dad and say “Well there is a magazine, buy it for me.” And I can’t get my head around that. [58:34]
When we were growing up in this country, when we came to this country and I was growing up in this country, there wasn't a lot to do. And when we decided there wasn't a lot to do - we went to church anyway - but when we decided there wasn't a lot to do, we found something to do. We made things happen. One of the things we made happened was our own entertainment. We - because the boys clubs wouldn't let us in, you know, whatever, as Afro-Caribbean boys - Wherever there was an empty hall, we knew the vicar. We would go to the vicar and say “Well, yes sir, Minister, we would like to have this hall on a Friday, Tuesday or Thursday night and have a club for us and our friends.” And very few of the vicars ever said no.
In Hackney back in those days, during the week for 14 to 18 year olds there was always something to do. And whenever you went there, it was being run by 14 to 18 year olds. It was Richmond Road, the church in Daubeney, the church in Manor Club in Manor Road. Every church hall there was, there was something going on for young people, being run by young people. And my head just glazes over, my mind just glazes over when you hear these kids who have got PlayStation, the Internet and all the iPods and all these other gadgets walking around the road saying “There is nothing to do.” I can't fathom it. Like I said, when we was growing up, we did it ourselves. And this amazing amount of skills you learned from doing it yourselves. [1:01:13]
The first thing was that you would have young boys who are now DJs, and making money in the commercial world; they started off with a turntable and three vinyl records in a church hall. And you would end up with a competition between sound systems, and you would get people who were in your group, who were good at carpentry, you said “Well, you build the speakers”. People who had a leaning towards, say electricity or electronics, you would get them to build your amp, buy your speakers. And people who had a good ear for music, they would be the selector and they would go and buy you records. And you developed skills that way.
But nowadays these guy that just walk up and down the street and say “There is nothing to do.” I don't understand it, really don’t. Because like I said from when I was six, I was making my own entertainment. Either building go karts, spinning tops. Cutting the leaves of aloe vera plants, slicing them into four and platting them to make a whip just to entertain yourself. It's amazing what we used there. This is me, between age of four and six, doing all these things; taking a sharp knife, getting the lump of wood, whittling it down to form of spinning top, knocking and nailing it to make a point, getting a bit of string. And I have got a toy that would last me a lifetime. [1:03:37]
Being shown by my older brother, if you split it and made two and shave off match heads and put it in the middle. When you span it, wrap the twine around it, you span and dropped, it would go off with a bang. And we did all these things at the age of five or six. Nowadays, you give a five or six year old child in this country a ball bearing wheel and lumps of wood, they wouldn’t know what to do with it. Wouldn’t know what to do with it.
If you told some of these guys, these teenagers, to build a sound system, they wouldn’t know where to start, they wouldn't know where to start. I don't think they will even know how to go about finding out either. Which for me is like soul destroying. Because there is so much to do if you want to not sit back and wait for it to be done to you. And trying to get this instilled into the children or the young people I come across, it's not easy either. I really don't know where or why this malaise has come into teenage culture, where they just sit back and then want everything done for them. They’re not prepared to sit down or get their hands dirty and do things for themselves. I think unless that changes things are just going to get worse and worse for them. They will end up old men, old women, having done nothing all their lives. Just feed me, feed me. Like Little Shop of Horrors. [Laughs]
[Part 2 of 2: Summary of interview]
Disc 2 [00:00:12] Race relations in childhood: Primary school fussed over as something unusual, few Black kids play with White majority. By Secondary school companions changed – many more Afro-Caribbeans – only Black playmates out of school.
Disc 2 [00:02:39] Race Relations: First job draughtsman/structural engineer, White employers – Race no issue.
Disc 2 [00:07:27] Race Relations in housing: Good 1st hand description of living in ‘notorious’ Holly Street Estate. Bryar Court (last to be knocked down). White estate officer refused to repair leak in their flat. After struggle council repaired it.
Disc 2 [00:10:17] Race Relations in second job: racist encounter with White Housing Officer paid 3 times his salary prompts him to seek job in council. [00:10:34] Good story of job as Estate Manager in Hackney – Stamford Hill. Quickly aware of racism in workplace for first time: jobs withheld from Black staff, particularly managerial. [00:11:52] CRE report racist allocations policy at Holly street. [00:12:25] Council leader, Andrew Puddephatt forces Equal Opps in recruitment and training. Creates Race Relations Unit, .Dan Thea leader, puts ‘Race Advisors’ in all council departments – to address balance in interviews etc.
Disc 2 [00:13:51] Race Relations in council: White staff complain Race Relations policy discriminates against them. Battle between Whites and anyone associated with Race Relations Unit. Unions fail to resolve. [00:14:51] He was involved through UNISON/ NALGO Black Members Groups. [00:15:42] Council sheds Black staff by constant restructuring “So as fast as the Race Relations Unit was opening the door for Black workers, the organization was shoving them out the back door. So you never have a critical mass of Black workers within Hackney to make a difference”.
NALGP describes this as ‘ethnic cleansing’.
Disc 2 [00:16:55] Race Relations in council: workforce diversity now at early 90s level - “Anywhere the public interfaces with the organization, you’ll see Black faces”.
Disc 2 [00:19:00] Race relations in Hackney society: School days, White myth that being Black equaled being good at fighting. Whites schoolmates always trying to get him into fights with other Black boys.
Disc 2 [00:20:23] Good story of school/ gang rivalries between his Hackney mates and Mile End school/gangs: Not racial. Just Hackney school tribe. Bats, bludgeons and occasional knife to cut not stab. Not deadly or violence of today.
Disc 2 [00:22:44] Race Relations, awareness of SUS laws: Lots of friends being stopped a lot. He was always on street because no car – only stopped twice, mild encounters. [00:24:54] Death of Colin Roach in Stoke Newington Police station a big issue – big campaign. [00:25:18] Good contextualization of big campaigning after Colin Roach’s death then and relatively little Black response to Black on Black crime now.
Disc 2 [00:27:29] Race relations, experience within the Black community: Good explanations of former organisations serving diversity communities: Move to centralised multi-function equality department, cuts Race and Equality support to ethnic minorities. [00:30:31] Good explanation of very effective Hackney Race Equality Council: in old Dudley’s building opposite Centreprise. On death of leader funding cut.
Disc 2 [00:32:53] Church and Hackney’s Afro-Caribbean community: “I have a solid relationship with God, and a strange relationship with church”. Catholic in Caribbean. Then Methodist in UK. Now Anglican. [00:34:37] Good story of how Methodist church experience, like experience of West Indians coming to UK: “Some were welcoming, but quite a few weren’t”. Black Christians form own churches – front rooms etc. [00:35:58] Good story of first church, Methodist in Mare street, now Ocean: Defiant parents not put off. Church became ‘Black’ with White minister Mr. Newby – allowed them to run youth club. Home from home. [00:38:36] Good story of church after move to Holly Street estate: Black-dominated Methodist church on Richmond Road. [00:39:44] Good explanation change for churches is now mainly Black congregations. More and more Black ministers. “Back in the 60s you would not of seen that. Even if you had a large Black congregation…”
Disc 2 [00:45:52] Good stories of Ridley Road changes: Worked as (summer) ‘barrow boy in market. Fruit and veg stall. Saw other side. Got perks. [00:46:50] Good story of shopping in Ridley as West Indian social centre: walking in his mother’s wake as she strolled meeting and chatting with friends. Waiting outside her favourite supermarket, many West Indian parents inflicted the same “A row of downcast-looking boys shuffling from one foot to the other like penguins in the snow, lined up against the shop window… We were all waiting for our parents to finish their shopping so we could drag the baskets home” [00:49:51] All stalls run by White people then. Amazed Whites knew about Black food. Litter not dirty then. Dirty now. [00:51:40] Since late 90s shops and stalls run by Black and Asian entrepreneurs. Early years only Black entrepreneur ‘Dyke and Dryden’. [00:54:15] Brixton market: Lots of friends and peers go there “But Ridley’s enough for me”. Mum bought meat and veg in Ridley and tinned goods in Well Street.
Disc 2 [00:56:45] Childhood chores: Good story of buying paraffin. Pre-central heating days. Weekly Paraffin truck. Or shop in Well Street if they ran out.
Disc 2 [01:00:18] Childhood chores: Good explanation of helping mum with shopping Saturdays or Fridays – “Dad was always working”
Disc 2 [01:01:18] Changes along Kingsland High Street today: New Station good. More mobile phones. Only Falkners fish and chips. Knew 6-7 cinemas. [01:05:02] Good story of seeing Kung Fu films at Odeon with teenage Black friends – “Came out and everybody was Kung Fu fighting. Then you’d go to All Nations, ‘Kung Fu’ fighting would come on, and you’d do it all over again”. Kingsland High Street much same. A lot more fruit and veg stalls.
Disc 2 [01:11:46] Good observations of African immigrants: First noticed among All Nations crowd. girls joke about standard African chat up line “Have I seen you somewhere before? [01:14:37] African entrepreneurship – grocers, material, mobile phones - where Afro-Caribbeans happy to be consumers.
Disc 2 [01:18:37] Today’s Black gun and knife crime issue: formerly seen as Afro-Caribbean/Jamaican problem. Now facts show just as many African boys involved – victims and perpetrators.
Disc 2 [01:21:13] Good observation of late 90s shift where majority of Black council workers go from Caribbean to African. Generally in particular housing, income collection, housing benefits. Some Afro-Caribbeans feel pushed out by new arrivals. African workers mistrusted and dismissed.
Disc 2 [01:24:08] Biggest change he’s noticed in Hackney socially is gentrification by White middle class arrivals. And development of services and facilities for them.
