Thanh Vu

Audio-visual items

12/05/2011

2013.178

2 x Audio recording (.wav) of an oral history interview with Thanh Vu. Thanh Vu was born in North Vietnam, 1944. He left Vietnam in 1979 to escape the communist regime. Vu set up the AnViet Foundation in Hackney. This oral history was recorded for the Hackney Housing History oral history project.
Total Length - 1 Hour, 36 minutes, 56 seconds

Summary:

Track A
[00:00:16] Growing up, studying, and working in Vietnam, escaping the Vietnam War, Arrival in the UK, resettlement programme, living in the countryside.

[00:03:10] Reasons for the Vietnamese community growth in Hackney and other boroughs.

[00:06:08] Difficulties of the Vietnamese community integrating into British society, support from local people.

[00:10:01] Matang school at Clapton Girls School, creation of the VLC (Vietnamese, Loas, Cambodian) Centre and An Viet.

[00:11:49] Vietnamese community squatting in Hackney.

[00:12:49] Clothes making in the Vietnamese community.

[00:17:30] Nails and beauty, other skills, encouraging and raising the younger generation.

[00:20:46] The younger generation being more successful, Vu’s children, social housing in Hackney.

[00:24:31] Housing in the Vietnamese community, immigration in the UK and benefits.

[00:29:42] First flat in London.

[00:30:52] Reasons why the Vietnamese community moved to Hackney.

[00:32:09] The community helping each other, Vu buying his flat.

[00:34:15] Vietnamese community squatting in empty flats, help from churches.

[00:39:10] Bernard Crofton property scandal.

[00:40:28] Tenancies from the council, second movement of the Vietnamese community from the countryside to London, Vu’s life in Britain and feelings of gratitude, success of Vietnamese community in various countries.

[00:46:25] Differences between North and South Vietnam, Vietnamese community adjusting to life in London, getting along with other communities.

[00:50:53] Housing in Vietnam, housing preferences in London, expectations of the government, sending money back to Vietnam.

[00:56:23] Sending money back to Vietnam (continued), community registering to vote.

[01:00:32] Being a councillor, cases worked on, working in community centres.

[01:03:07] Getting grants for community centres, work as a cleaner and in a bank.

[01:07:24] What ‘home’ means, connection with family.

[01:09:47] Local neighbour committee, neighbourhood meetings.

[01:11:17] Improved housing situation in Hackney, possible future situations.

[01:14:10] Solutions for housing problems, people having less reliance on government, how people can help themselves.

Track B
[00:00:00] Living at the Woodberry Down Estate, relationship with neighbours.

[00:04:33] How the Estate has changed, current development of the Estate.

[08:46] Benefits of being a homeowner, passing his property to his children.

Vu, Thanh (Subject of)

No

Oral History interview with Thanh Vu. 2013.178

Track A
Ellie Schling (ES): So this is Ellie Schling

Myk Zeitlin (MZ): And I’m Myk Zeitlin

Thanh Vu (TV): Nice to meet you, both of you

ES: And we’re here on the 12th of May 2011, and we’re interviewing Thanh Vu, is that right? [00:00:07]

TV: Yeah

ES: At An Viet. Okay. Could you tell me about where you were born and brought up? [00:00:16]

TV: I was born in Vietnam, and born in the North Vietnam, and in 1954 the Vietnam divided into two, I moved to the South, only with my brother and sister, and the rest of the family stayed in the North because at that time the communists controlled very hard, don’t let the people to move to the South, and at that time I was about nine or ten years old. And I studied, I qualified the master degrees in philosophy at Saigon University, and also I was the youngest councillor in Vietnam as well. And then, in 1975, the fall of Saigon, I escaped four times and two of them failed and the last time I escaped by myself with a small boat, nine metre long, with 41 people, and I left my family behind. And, in the middle of the way the British ship picked me up, and landed in Singapore for three months, and I arrived in this country in October 1979. After one week, the Home Office recruited me to work for Vietnamese programme.

At that time Mrs.Thatcher to join the international [effort] to resolve the boat people, and British government agreed to receive 20,000 Vietnamese from Hong Kong, to come over here. And most of the Vietnamese in this country is the Vietnamese ethnic Chinese, and most of them to live in the countryside, the border between Vietnam and China, and another people from the centre of Vietnam. But people they very nervous, they never live abroad so they don’t want to leave, but the government forced them to leave. And also total Vietnamese from the south in this country, about 5,000, only the people picked up by British ships allowed to settle in the UK. But the rest, 20,000 from Hong Kong.

[00:03:10] And after one week, I worked for this programme for three years to try to um, resettlement all of them. At that time they were not concentrate in one place, because in 1991 or ‘90 happen a riot, in Brixton, the government didn’t want the Vietnamese in one area, they split up, all around the country. So, after two years, they felt very alone, and they moved to London, and lots of them moved to Hackney. The reason is in Hackney in 1979, classified [as a] rough borough, the middle class people didn’t want to live in Hackney, and the Hackney Council also have a group of people, on the councillor and officer, came to turn the area to the biggest centre in the UK to invite Vietnamese move to Hackney. And I worked there so I know the story from the beginning. And then the, this person - policies totally failed because they don’t want to live in the countryside, or very far away from London. The reason is they felt alone and also no Chinese or Vietnamese food, they moved to London, easy to get in Chinatown. So that’s why they moved back to London.

And from the beginning they came to Hackney to pick up on the empty flat, to get in, and later on the Hackney [Council] agreed to give them the tenancy agreement. I also did a lot of work for them, to talk to Hackney Council, to do interpreter. And since 1982 until now, the Hackney, that’s why the biggest Vietnamese community and the other boroughs, conservative or like, in Westminster or Ealing, or in Chelsea, no Vietnamese refugee there, only the poor borough like Hackney, Tower Hamlets, Haringey, Greenwich, Lewisham, that almost Vietnamese concentrate there.

[00:06:08] And I said, after the three years there, the resettlement programme finished and I know many difficulties faced to Vietnamese, because almost [all] of them live in the countryside, they have illiterate, even in their own language, so very difficult for them to study English here, so the most difficulty with them they couldn’t learn English. And also, integrate with new societies very difficult. So, some very simple things like to sit in the loo, in the centre, it’s not very … don’t know how to, quite a lot of toilet seat broken, they don’t know, and later on they know that they sit with two feet in there [laughs]. So that is simple because in Vietnam or in China they don’t have such a kind of toilet, and to come here they sit on it so that’s why it’s broken a lot. Simple thing like this very difficult for them to interfere - to integrate in a new society. And also there’s habit to make a queue - that’s not something in Vietnam, and they jump up and then to get into the bus, make the local people very upset, something like that. Or simple thing, saying thank you or sorry, not with them always so that’s why they have a lot of things to learn. And also with the children, as well, they don’t know how to contact with local authority to get the place in the school, or difficulty to contact with teachers, something like that, we have a lot of work to do for them.

In the countryside, there were the support group by local people, to help the Vietnamese refugee at that time, because they heard the story of the cross the sea to risk their life and the pirate time, pirate and many sad story, spread around the world. So the local people the British people are very supportive of Vietnamese refugees to settle down here, somewhere, especially in the countryside. When one Vietnamese family move there to live in that area the mayor also to come to hand over the key for them, and with the press to make a story about Vietnamese refugees, something like that, and Hackney also meeting the people in the town to welcome them, the first few families.

But with us and the New Years, we often to organise a New Year’s celebration at the town hall every year, so invite the local people, and officers, to come to share the er the New Year’s celebration with us, something like that.

[00:10:01] And then, apart from help them to settle down and with get on well with daily life, to get benefit, housing, blah - blah - blah, and we also, open the Matang school, at that time in Clapton Girls School, for many years. And at that time Hackney still have money to ask the school keeper to open Saturdays for us, but after five, ten, seven years it closed, so we have no chance to organise Matang school for children. But also we are lucky, after the Greater London Council close down and I also received £100,000 from Ken Livingstone to buy the VLC (Vietnamese, Loas, Cambodian) Centre, so that is our first community centre. And at the same time I set up An Viet, because An Viet I set up in 1982 already, and VLC in 1990, something like that. And now we use the VLC a lot for the Matang school, and some other activity. With An Viet here we hope we can have a long lease so we can create some more activity and more useful thing for the local people.

[00:11:49] And back on the housing, from the beginning the … as I said to you that Hackney Council welcome Vietnamese to come over here, and also we had this personal policy; a lot of them to move to Hackney, to become the squatters, and later on they had tenancy agreements, that is the reason Hackney is the biggest Vietnamese community. And with the economic side, almost Vietnamese are here as I said ethnic Chinese and in the countryside, they have … the first difficulty is the language of course, and then also they don’t know.

[00:12:49] At that time, I met some Jewish people and Kurdish people who have a clothes-making factory in Hackney. So I introduce Vietnamese, have a very good talent to do the clothes-making, and then they work for them, and also later on every single Vietnamese family have at least two commercial sewing machines, and husband and wife to take the garment from the factory back home to do the work. And later on, Vietnamese they learn how to contact with the showroom to get the contract and then they opened their own factories, to do the work like Jewish people and Turkish. And with An Viet at the beginning I use the big room at the back of the building as a clothes making factory to help them to learn how to run this factory, how to get contact, of course we did the interpreting for them, and contact to the showroom for them, and to get a contract, and then when they use the place over there for two or three years they move out to a bigger one and proper one. And since 1985 to ’95 or ’98 every single family do the clothes making, and gentlemen go, went to Chinatown to do something in the kitchen and later on they learned the skill and then they opened a take-away and restaurant later on.

And the people from the south, they have a higher degree, and also they used to meet with European people, Americans, something like that, and easy for them to adapt to the new society and also almost [all] of them, if they have a background in their own field, professional one, they learn English few years then back to the university, and they have proper job. But almost [all] the others have to use sewing machine. And we have also a few millionaire due to use the sewing machine skill, like now in Mare Street. To say he was in Liverpool, and also his family, also not very high in education but he have lots of brain and then he move to Hackney and he employ almost [mostly] the Jewish to work for him, and now he got about 36 staff, all of them Jewish, to do the design, and also contact with everywhere to deliver their products. And also in Vietnam he had five factories, five or seven factories and he got contract with Marks & Spencer or some other shop and then manufacture in Vietnam and bring back to the UK or somewhere else. Yes, that is the successful story.

[00:17:30] But in 19 … I remember, in ‘98 or ’96 the Berlin Wall fall down and all the clothes making moved to the east because cheaper labour, and then the Vietnamese, at that time they, almost, the factory closed. And luckily we had a new skill to introduce for them, my friend had experience and some shops in America to do the nail and beauty. I invite him to come here to have talk and also to teach them how to do it, in one week. And later on, now you can see everywhere in United Kingdom, thousands and thousands of shops, everywhere, by Vietnamese. In Hackney you can see about 50, or 40, or 30 shops inaudible[00:18:39]. It’s very popular.

ES: It is, yeah.

TV: The main thing of the Vietnamese now to do with the nails, to compare with the past with clothes-making, and then after they have skill in catering. And you can see it in Shoreditch area, 25 or 30 Vietnamese factories, er, the restaurants. Everywhere now.

MZ: Yes

ES: Very popular

TV: I think the Vietnamese they have, in general, they adapted to the new society very well, and because they’re hard working, and so, after ten years to do clothes-making they reserve the money, and waiting for the children, growing up and help them. And also another good side of the Vietnamese, the family, control of the family’s background, they always encourage the children to work hard at school and almost [all] of them have a very high degree. And so the younger generation now, almost [all] they have a proper job, in the city. To compare with their parents - always to work at home and to do the low job, I think it’s a good sign of the studies in … the young generation work very hard and study very carefully, to their subject, almost [all] they’re very successful.


ES: Do the younger generation tend to stay in Hackney? [00:20:46]

TV: They stayed in Hackney, and some of them moved to the city if they had a good job, and some of them have a good job in Singapore, in United States, something like that. Very very successful now, all Vietnamese … the children. But they all studied in the local schools, and many people complained about standard of the school in Hackney but I think school and teachers good enough. But the most important [is] the family support, or the stable family to encourage their children. With the families broken down, or only argument between parents and something like that, how they can concentrate to studies? Take example with my children, I’ve got three and all studies in Hackney, and they got very good qualifications, architecture and - lecturer in architecture - and director of housing, and lawyer, all studies…


ES: They’ve all gone into housing? [00:22:09]

TV: Yeah, my second daughter, she is a specialist in Section 106, and she’s inaudible[00:22:21] she have to pay tax of over one million pounds. Specialist Section 106, it means every development have to … apart from development it’s for social housing, like in Hackney. In Woodberry Down for instance, they build 200 houses to date but the builder’s allowed to take 160 units for themselves and the rest are social housing, and…

ES: 40 are social housing?

TV: Yeah


ES: How many social housing were demolished, to build 200? [00:23:02]

TV: Um … only the Woodberry Grove, very small area, in front of my house, very small. But Hackney don’t have to pay any. Only let them to demolish. Their [the builders] own money, and also to build new one, Hackney get 260, something like that, and the builder gets 160. And they’re all, it mean, Hackney don’t have to pay any penny, that is the way to do now. And my daughter specialist in social housing, and work out on the paperwork, and calculates something like that. And she works also as the Director of Maidenhead and District Housing for ten years, before she set up her own company. So that is one example for second generation, they work very hard and some of them, they [are a] lecturer in the university now, and very pleased with their achievement. Even the families, some families the parent totally illiterate, but the children, they [have a] very high degree in the Uni, very good job - is very strange, yeah.


MZ: So presumably, if the new generation are more successful and families have saved money, their housing needs become different? Are people in the community more likely to buy housing now? [00:24:31]

TV: In general, the … for Vietnamese families the housing is the most important, the most important for them. So the, with the family where the children have the good job, they often buy their own house for their own family and the parents stay in the old one. But the problem, or the, not the problem, the one is some families - only two, husband and wife - still keep three or four bedrooms, something like that. I don’t know if they have housing department to deal with that. And also, in general, quite a lot of them they are, the children have their own own house, or to buy their own property, and parents still keep the old one, in general like this. But, some case there are the children have a good earning, they also buy two houses, for the parents and for themselves, yeah. And with the Vietnamese I think, the housing need is not very big problem, because as I said, that almost [all] of their children have a good job, and prefer to buy their own one.

But, the other thing that I mentioned before, that with Vietnamese community, and also the other community, I can see that some families split up, not true divorce, something like that, and they took two properties, something like that. And also now, we have the illegal immigration to this country, is quite a lot in, because they … to compare with the other countries, in the European countries, the UK still is the most country they would like to settle in. Because, from my point of view, the welfare system and English language, and a lot of them want to come over here. And also the government is like … in America, they let them to have only six months … the six months support there, but in this country sometimes it’s still going on to getting benefits for 30 years, something like that is not fair for the hard working people. And also they don’t declare tax or they don’t want to get a job, something like that, still get the benefit. Or now with the efforts by the government quite a lot of them to declare only minimum sixteen hours per week, and still receive housing benefit, and something like that. And also, with the illegal immigration to come over here, in the past few months quite a lot of them has been, have permission to stay in this country. In the Vietnamese community I can see quite a lot, but now stop. But in the past, four, five months, or three months a lot of them have been recognised. If they live here, more - eight years or more, allow[ed] to stay here. And also they require housing, the most important with them, so I don’t know how, Hackney, how to deal with that, and how soon the government or Hackney have enough money to continue to build to give them enough property to stay - is the big question.


ES: Where did you, where did you live first in London when you came to London? [00:29:42]

TV: When I left Refugee Council, I had a flat in, the first flat, in Manor House area. And after, in 1992, I bought my flat, and then, I use my flat to buy a house, [I am] still in there, and my flat my son live in, and now demolished -

ES: Oh, now it’s demolished?

TV: Demolished for regeneration. So, my family is quite OK, to settle very well, and all my children have their own houses.


MZ: What did you think of Hackney when you first came to Hackney, what was your first idea of it? [00:30:52]

TV: Hackney, the reason the Vietnamese came to Hackney a lot because at that time, as I explained to you, a rough borough, the middle class didn’t want to live here and quite a lot of empty flat, and then the Hackney Council welcome Vietnamese who come over here. And also the other thing, the Hackney have very common market, very suitable for Vietnamese to find out some vegetable or some other thing for them to shop, to do shopping or, to prepare their own meals - in the south with Brixton, in the north with Hackney. And they like to live here and very convenient to go to the city, and so that’s why the Vietnamese would think that Hackney is quite OK now, yeah.


ES: What was your housing like, what was your first flat like? Was it … was it in good condition? [00:32:09]

TV: Oh that, for us it actually is quite OK. With the Vietnamese almost they do it by themself, call a friend to come to do the new wallpaper, or to prepare everything good for them. And they look after the flat or house very well.

ES: Oh, yeah

TV: The traditional one who stayed in the good condition to feel very comfortable before can do some other thing.


ES: So, if a flat needed work or repairs, then you’re saying the Vietnamese tenants would rather fix things for themselves than tell the council to fix it? [00:32:51]

TV: Yeah, almost [all] of them to ask friend to come to help them, otherwise waiting for the council sometimes very long, and also they don’t have enough English to explain, or better to use their own money to do the paper work or painting or something like that, They look after, in general, they look after their properties very good indeed, and tidy.


ES: Did you start to live in your flat as a tenant, or did you … [00:33:34]

TV: Yeah, I … as a tenant and then the right to buy by Mrs. Thatcher, I bought it my flat only £20,000

ES: Wow!

TV: In 1992. Very good value. And now then demolished … give us 230,000 [all laugh]. Demolished and then compensation,


ES: It’s a good thing you got that. Where were the, when people started to squat the flats in Hackney, when Vietnamese people started to squat flats, what areas were the flats in? [00:34:15]

TV: Everywhere

ES: Everywhere

TV: Everywhere where empty. They, you know, that is the council flat and also [they] love it and bang it to get in, everywhere, yeah. Spread around Hackney not concentrating in one area, but of course the good area like De Beauvoir have no council flat and also, not easy no council flats, or they come to the areas more empty like in Weymouth Terrace in Haggerston, or Woodberry Down or in E9, something like that.


ES: And how, was there, how was that organised? Did people help each other? [00:35:14]

TV: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also when they get in they connect by themselves, temporary, and then, they’re very good in helping each other, to stay temporary and then after, Hackney Council give them a tenancy agreement, and then they do it, much much better then to stay there.


ES: Did any of the families get evicted, from the flats they’d squatted, did the council want to remove them, or…? [00:35:47]

TV: At that time no, almost they … But maybe now, or few years ago very difficult to stay there and they evicted them to stay in the short-life, something like that. But in 1979 to 1990 almost [all] they allow to stay.


ES: So were some people evicted later that had been in squatting for a long long time then, since…? [00:36:29]

TV: Um, I only to know few cases, not, not a lot.


MZ: Did it take much political pressure, did you need to put political pressure on the council, for them to be so sympathetic, or… [00:36:44]

TV: The first movement, we only [had] to come to the council to tell the council that they move in, and then the council said, ‘stay there until we make a decision.’ And also at that time I have some English people and I remember the Prideaux House in … I remember the church in … St Baptist church in, near Victoria Park.

ES: Right, yeah.

TV: At that time the … I still remember the name Reverend Brown or something like that, he also use his church to help Vietnamese from the beginning, but after we set up our own community and then they close and also help us. So I often took them to talk to him and also he and I went to Hackney Council to see the Mayor or the Councillor Geoff, he the leader of the council at that time, Geoff, the Labour party the Mayor at that time. So they all agree to that because the empty flats, a lot still in there, and you know the stories of, in 19 - I think in ’95, the Hackney officers to take the keys to open all the empty flats to set up their own company to rent it, council flat!

ES: From the Housing Office? [00:39:10]

TV: Yes, yeah. And then, Bernard Crofton at that time found out the private company by the council officers to take quite a lot of property in Hackney, to set up their own company to let the property that Hackney bought [with] their own pocket money, and then he sack quite a lot of them and they said ‘Oh it’s discrimination, black and white and then go to court’ blah blah blah blah. Yeah that it is the story, you can see that, that is, empty flats, they use them by the officers illegal in 1985 or ‘80, around then, only me at that time to support Bernard Crofton.

ES: Really?

TV: With the newspaper, they interview me, ‘Why do you support Bernard Crofton?’ something like that. That is, give you some ideas about Hackney at that time. Empty flat, quite a lot.


ES: Yeah, yeah. And how did it, how did people come to get given tenancies? [00:40:28]

TV: Almost … I came with the Reverend to talk to the council, and went to them about this situation and also the empty flat at that time, it’s better to let them in to look after the flat, otherwise leave it empty.

ES: Yeah

TV: So they easy to agree for them to get tenancy agreement. Especially in 1982 to ’90, yeah.

ES: That’s really good.

TV: When the second movement from the countryside back to London.


ES: How did the second movement happen? [00:41:18]

TV: After few years to stay in the countryside and they do it by themselves, to move to London. It means the refugee programme finished in 1982, it mean around ’85 to ’90 they moved back to London. I witness for the Vietnamese refugee in this country from the beginning so I know quite a lot of stories about their housing or the way of life, so that’s why we set up community, and the biggest, successful and also the first Vietnamese community in the UK. Because I work for them I know their difficulty, so I tried to help them. And also with me I’m very shock when British ship picked me up out of the sea and when to come to the UK I feel, like a paradise. It mean people have a benefit, people have housing, everything free like go to school, go to the hospital, blah blah blah blah. So that’s why I feel I have a debt to British people, so I only claim benefit few months and then I work at cleaner for two year to get the money to survive and also to study my Master degree at SOAS and then I never claimed benefit. Because I feel in debt to British people and the government to give me a chance to live there, comfortable life like this. But in Vietnam, all the other countries, you can see that very difficult, for them, even in America, America now they only to support six months and after six months cut off, totally, and you have to survive by yourself, to work for living, for your housing, something like that. But they used to work hard in Vietnam, how they cannot survive in Western countries like in the UK and in the United States. And also after 10 years, 20 years, Vietnamese community in the United States now they have over 100 engineers to work for NASA, and quite a lot of them in the other fields, with very big award, something like that. And almost [all] children have very good degree in the States and in this country as well. Almost every country, like in Germany, Australia, big development of Vietnamese in Australia, or in America, they settle down and they move to the area, empty for a long time, and they build up everything and now become one of the highest price in land or property. Like in Australia or in Paris, thirteenth, very poor at that time, but when Vietnamese move in, they have their own community and business development a lot, and become very expensive area. They work hard and achieve well, especially they concentrate in their future with their children, encourage them to have better lives than he have and do job, something like that – everything basic in the family education. And in America also they learn stories that why in the area is very poor for local people and no-one can achieve anything until Vietnamese move in and change the way to study in school, and local people and children and so learn something how to beat the other. And then they have [are] successful, because they concentrate in their family - education.


ES: You were saying before that there was quite a lot of cultural differences between people and Vietnamese people when they first came here. What was that like for you when you first came, adjusting to the culture you found in Hackney? [00:46:25]

TV: For me, because I lived in the South and also the way in Vietnam is nearly the same the way in France because Vietnam was the colony of France and the way of life was very high. But in the North, under communist regimes - terrible and they don’t have any chance to get in touch with foreigners, and also have the way of education in the standard of the development country like in the South Vietnam, totally the same standard and also a lot of professors from Paris to come to teach in the university of the South Vietnam, and the standard of life is easy for them to integrate to the new society. But the people from the North to come here, it’s very difficult because they don’t know how to have the behavior or the way of life, at the … to respect by local people and very difficult for them. Even with the way to travel, with the way to make a queue, to go to the bus, or to make the queue into the restaurant or the shopping centre, they don’t have such a habit and very difficult for them, and also make a very surprise to Vietnamese for local people and also to talk in the public area only very loudly, something like that, it difficult for them, yeah. But with the young generation is of course better and better, but with the parents - very difficult to integrate to the new society.


ES: What about with people from other communities, not British communities, but in Hackney is there problems getting along, or ….? [00:48:57]

TV: With the other community and getting, how to getting on well with local people and that, that easy. The good thing of Vietnamese people when they move to the one area or in one flat they ought to make friend with the people, neighbours, and often to make something like a New Year’s, or they have a party in family, they make something to eat to the neighbour, yeah. A spring rolls or something like that and getting on quite, very well with the neighbours, that’s easy. The way of Vietnam, they always do say that closer with the neighbours as the same as your relative, and like the standard life for them, and I don’t think they have any difficulty to live with neighbours, or the other community. With British people, pure English people, maybe some strain [laughs] because the ways of Vietnamese in the countryside or, like I said, to speak very loudly or no make respect to the people to give way for them because life in Vietnam they have to jump up to survive, so the habit of their life. But they will learn lesson, and try to correct it [laughs].


MZ: One thing, it’s really, it’s interesting to compare how housing is different in different places; is there anything, can you tell us anything you remember about the house where you were brought up? How it was different or what it was like? [00:50:53]

TV: With housing in this country [it’s] totally different in Vietnam, because in Vietnam, the division between the living room and the bathroom nearly, not the same in this country, [in Vietnam] it’s very simple, maybe the curtain, that’s it, or they have one big bedroom, maybe three or four family, members of family, to live together in one bed like this. Or, if they have new couple or maybe during the night they live in the living room. But in this country it’s very, very well organized and, living room, bathroom, bathroom toilet it’s very comfortable, yeah, to compare with the living standard in Vietnam. Of course in the South, if the people have money they have their own standard like French style, but in the North Vietnam, in the countryside, and totally different. And with them, to have local housing that is great for them, they don’t have any question and they very happy to get in. Only one thing I remember that they don’t want to live in very high estate, like stage 20, or something like that, they prefer to live lower. Because in their minds, something happen with the lift, how they can survive something like that, and they very frightened, very reserved for one. But they have no choice. But some families, later on, they have children, they ask the council to get them to have a lower flat. But in general, with them, the housing system in this country is quite good for them, to compare with their old life in Vietnam. And they also have a habit try to make themselves for decoration, cleaning or something like that, to make the place to live comfortable, and they have, do it by themself. Difficult for them to wait for the council to come to do for them. Of course big thing they can’t do but small thing they do by themselves or they ask their friends to come to help them to paint, or to make the wallpaper, something like that. They’re very good in that way, they don’t rely on the staff, on the council officers, to help them.


ES: Do you think there’s … is that a difference do you think, the expectations of what the local government or the government should do for you? [00:54:26]

TV: With the Vietnamese in general they feel very comfortable, they feel enough and they very grateful for the help of the government and they don’t have any complaint, I don’t think they have any complaint. They quite happy to be settled here. And they feel it’s good for them because the basic thing in life, the society or the government give to them, like you have nowhere to live, you have a council flat, you have benefit to survive, or maybe they spend less than the benefit they receive. Take example they don’t want to buy the good food in the store, they go to Dalston to buy the chicken wing or the pork leg or something like that, it’s a very cheap one too, to save money, and quite a lot of them receive benefit, they still have money to send to their families in Vietnam.

ES: Yeah

TV: For them it is too enough for them. Nothing to pay for to go to the doctor, nothing to pay to go to the hospital, to compare with America. They live here, as I said, like in heaven and totally happy, and don’t have to have any more [laughs].


ES: Is there …do a lot of people send money back to Vietnam who live here in Hackney? [00:56:23]

TV: Yeah, yeah. [They] try to reserve for something, to buy the cheap food and they feel happy like this. Like chicken wing or the pork leg, something like that [laughs], so that is the way it is, they send money, they send money. And you remember that many family to live in the countryside in Vietnam, they have nothing to spend; it very, very little, until now, not in the past. Under Communist regimes the poor is very poor, no rice to eat, only to have some, like, potato, or some root, or some family have no meat at all. So they very lucky to be abroad. And to compare with them, the other thing I feel that Vietnamese are everybody and they quite happy they have nothing to demand.

One bad thing for them is, I encourage them quite a lot but still have not very great success, and that is the … I encourage them to register to vote - that is a way to show to the politician, like in United States now they live in one area and even the President of the State also come to visit California to meet the Vietnamese voters, because they concentrate in one place and then they recognize the value of their vote. But in Vietnam, especially in the North Vietnam, the government only to organise the election, that is the formal but they choose already and force the people to go to vote, and in this country they don’t value [voting]. The only thing they have of the vote, like the local people they can see the list of thousand Vietnamese and the candidate will come to visit and when they elected they will do something for the community. But we try to educate them, many time, register to vote and you have the right to choose anybody to vote without interfere into that field but you have to register to vote, and then use their vote to show to the politicians that you can make the change if we have a lot of voters in your community. But in Vietnam, especially in the North they live under Communist regime, they don’t value that. That is the one bad thing, yeah, we try to … I send out quite a lot of letters in the past, 500,000 letters, to encourage them to register to vote. Like census, we organise a census here to help them, and to spread out the news that if you don’t fill it you will have a penalty, thousand pounds, something like that, and quite a lot of them to bring here, and they don’t know the value of this thing. Important for their life, but they don’t pay enough attention.


ES: You were a councillor yourself, in Hackney? [01:00:32]

TV: Yeah, yeah, 2002 - 2006 only one term. Is quite good, is quite good for me, quite good experience, but too much meeting, [laughs] many, many meeting, all the time so I had no time at all. If you do it, in a proper way, maybe is full time job. Yeah, and also I’m very proud to help them to result of many cases, for ten years [previously] it … no result


ES: What kind of cases? [01:01:13]

TV: Housing, and something like, take example, Kingsland Road here; the government or Hackney agreed to give them £50,000 to make nice the front of the property, but they’re waiting for five years to get the grant, something like that. And also some benefit of some black people in Hackney and they came to me to complain that, ‘Oh I tried to do it many years but no-one too concerned or to resolve of problem for me’ and I push and push to get, to me to get [the] officer, and then to present their case and to demand to do it straight away. And, if you work hard and try to help them to discuss their problem with the officer, so maybe it is … otherwise to [write] letters, send it and then throw it away, so no way to resolve.


ES: Is that what you’ve done as a … working in the community centres over the years as well? [01:02:29]

TV: Yeah, yeah yeah. So, in here we have every, many people turned up to help to phone to housing benefit, to phone to tax credit or help them to register with land regulation, something like that. It’s quite busy community.


ES: How many people are involved in the community centre, or here, and there’s An Viet and VLC? [01:03:07]

TV: It depend on the grant, but problem is that without a grant I continue to do so. So we, in the past, almost every culture we have the Vietnamese community, but now we only have three or four and that’s it, because of no funding and no-one committed to the community. And with here I only to set up the community is easy but to run it and to keep it running is difficult. So we have something to do, to commit to do something; with grant or without grant so we can continue. In the first ten year, I don’t know how to get the grant, how to apply the grant, and the first £5,000 received from Trust for London I give to one English man who help me with the writing application form and to contact to the outside organisation and he get some moneys from them. Otherwise, with us, limited in writing the proposal and express idea, it very difficult. So when I first run it, give it to English man to help me, and I continue to volunteer, full time.


ES: How did you support yourself while working for free? [01:05:04]

As I said I worked two years at the cleaning contract, from five to, sometimes to two o’clock in the morning, in principle in the contracting, for five offices, two or three offices per night, but beginning with five or six and sometimes until one or three, two o’clock, it’s very hard work. And then later on I, to get some money, to work for Barclays Bank, a specialist in Vietnamese to help them to get the mortgage, or … mortgage for … or to borrow the money to open a shop, and I get some money, and then I continue to using my reserve when I have no job, not claim any benefit [laughs]. I always thinking that, in Vietnam we have nothing at all from the government, how we can survive? Million people have nothing from the government, they have to go by themselves, how they survive? Why live in this country, there’s plenty of opportunity to get a job or to get some money, why we have to rely on benefit? And make clear I feel ashamed, and that I expect to do that, I feel the … in debt when I was allowed to stay.


ES: We’re asking everyone that we interview, one question; What does, when you think of a home, what does it mean to you, what does the word home mean to you? [01:07:24]

TV: Home is very important, and your happiness or unhappiness is your home. Home is being the house or flat, to live and home is where we live in harmony in the family. If you have two things, yeah, OK, so you will be encouraged to do some other thing. Otherwise it is a disaster to you with the very bad apartment, without water, or without electricity or toilet, or especially inside the family, see, a human, or not to get on well. So, it very important, home, to start your life.


ES: So for you home and family are very connected? [01:08:42]

TV: Yes, of course, yes. To make you [have] happiness, otherwise, losing home, home is mean - broken - family, or very bad quality or where make you very uncomfortable, you cannot concentrate to do the other thing. Or after work hard in the office to [go] back home and lot of unorganised things in your home, and also food no good, or not good relation with your children, how you can feel happy to do your work? And also with, the neighbours as well, if your neighbours always complain to you, how you can feel happy to live there? [Laughs]


ES: What do you think about the general neighbourhood situation in Hackney? How is it as a place to live, with your neighbours? [01:09:47]

In general, the neighbourhood, they have a committee, and they discuss with their officer, to try to improve the environment, and also the neighbourhood in general. It’s a very good way to support each other and also to understand between the staff and local community. It’s a good thing. The neighbourhood always have a meeting themselves and meeting with the officer to try to improve the environment.


ES: Which meetings are those? [01:10:27]

TV: Sorry?

ES: Which meetings are those? Where? [01:10:29]

TV: I think of neighbourhood, the tenant also have a representative or to set up their own, or the local people to ask questions that they raise, also most of them to listen to each other try to resolve it – it’s very good, the system or the way in this country they have democratic form, some form of inaudible[01:11:13].


ES: What do you think about the housing situation now in Hackney? [01:11:17]

TV: From my experience, the housing of the estates [are] now much much better than 10 or 20 or 30 years before. You can see the streets very clean, also the estates also very clean, and very big improvement, to compare with in the past.


ES: There aren’t so many empty houses anymore? [01:11:54]

TV: I don’t think so, yeah, yeah. Almost fill up. And also a lot of people still in housing waiting list, and also, some areas the people live in [are] not to be good enough to keep their environment clean. They rely on staff, obviously, not good at all. And how we can have staff every day to clean for you and when you have something spread around like this with dirty thing, with the fly over there. So we need every area - they have some people to remind the others, or to set up their own estate committee or block committee, try to encourage the other to keep clean, for, before the … Because the officer, or the staff in Hackney or anywhere, never have enough, if each of the people, each tenant, cannot do the proper way to keep their environment clean or better. But to compare with in the past, I can see a big improvement in Hackney.

ES: Yeah.


MZ: Do you think this will continue, or do you think with the new government it might get worse again? [01:13:28]

TV: [Laughs] That is the question because less staff and also less of money, so difficult to keep the same quality. And also with the government and also the situation now the big deficit of the nation like this, and maybe have no choice, if we don’t … to reduce spending.


ES: What do you think, you said, you mentioned before that for the newer immigrants, that there wasn’t enough housing for them, and that there’s still a lot of people on the waiting list. Can you see any solutions for these problems, or …? [01:14:10]

TV: Of course … We got people not demand everything from the government to help you. It mean have to help themselves. Firstly encourage the children, or themselves, to have a good job to get the money, try to buy themselves, and to release the council flat for the poorer, or … I seen some very bad changes, split, not true divorces, something like that, and the government or local authority try to do something about it. Some families they split up to get two property, one for letting and something like that, it’s very bad. And how in one borough, they have more people to do so, and how the government or the local authority have enough property to give to them? It’s very difficult. That is one thing. And the other thing is the, as I said, try to work and to have their own, by their own right, property. And the people more and more to, especially immigration, to come over here, a million people, how the government can, or British people can, provide for them? And also with the system like this, give them the whole life with benefit. How [much] money they can supply to them for many years like this? It’s a very big question. Don’t ask the government or the government to do everything. I still remember that President Kennedy said, ‘Don’t ask the nation to help you, but try to help the nation,’ something like that. Only when the people to, to recognize that, each people have to contribute something to the society, the society will be … to improve for themselves and for the next generation, otherwise the people all rely on the government, like this country I don’t feel that is good enough. Because million people to get benefit, and they not try to work hard enough. Only I repeat my question, like in the many other countries they have no benefit, how they still survive? Why they come here to ask everything for nothing, and then not to do anything. Take example, like my country, the people in the countryside very poor there, have nothing at all from the government. How they still survive? No-one to rely. Why they have to come here with plenty, plenty apology, even without English, they can do some work without English, cleaning something, or home cares, look after the children for the children with … Don’t ask very big money for the looking, the children, something like that. How the people can give over £100, £200 for care for the children for one family? It’s too much. The other rely to the other people. It’s very difficult question to the government but I think everybody have to question themselves. To contribute something, otherwise it’s still waiting to ask, the benefit come to them. No way they can survive for long long term.

ES: Yeah, it’s not a long term solution.

TV: Yeah.


ES: What could, well, apart from education and earning more money, enough money to buy a house, what else could people do, on an individual level? [01:19:28]

TV: Mmm … You can make clear for me?

ES: If some people can’t earn enough money to buy a house, what could they do to improve their housing situation for themselves? For instance, and for other people in the community? [01:19:56]

TV: The question still rely on their effort; they have strong enough or determination to do something to improve themselves. To work hard, and also to much improve something inside their family first, before you ask the other to help. Of course family very difficult, but if the people limit their demand, in such way they can survive. So step by step the less people to demand, the local authority or the government can save money to do some other thing. Otherwise the demand or requirement never enough for them. Never, never enough. If people have a thing themselves that is not for me or to compare with the past or compare with the situation of the whole of the world now, can I survive, something like that. So, if they ask themselves like this, we’ll try to do something. Because if they don’t do something by themselves, how they can have the other people to help them? Because the government or local authority have thousands of million cases the same of them, how they can resolve? If they don’t, little bit, a little determination to do something suitable for their situation. Difficult isn’t it? [Laughs] But for me I feel the, is very happy, very happy. If you try the other way, the other way and try to resolve my problem by myself first before I ask neighbours or my friend or my … the other to help me. Try to resolve myself first.


ES: But then a lot of people come here, for instance, for help, don’t they? Or … ? [01:23:01]

TV: Of course, we try to help them but with the thing, I think the government or the local people cannot help, and that’s why you have to ask your friend to help you, or also your relative, or by yourself try to do something; change this one change that one. And think again about their own life, in your own country and how the people can have small thing like this, with thousands of small things like that, if you don’t help yourself, and how you can have the other to help you, something like that. Only, if in Vietnam no-one help you, how you can survive? And some people reply to me, ‘Oh we tried to ask. It’s OK, that’s fine, if they don’t have that’s OK as well.’ That’s it. They want a better life, but rely on the other people. I explained to you that it’s basic, in life, the government have offered to you, and the rest you have to do yourself. The big thing is housing, where to live, somewhere to live. And when you not well you have a free doctor and also the health service, and education, your children. What else do you have to ask? Too, too much, and enough for people to survive by themselves.


ES: Do you have any more thoughts that you want to add? [01:25:23]

TV: I think that’s it.

ES: Thank you. Thank you very much

MZ: Thank you, yes.

[01:25:34] - END OF TRACK A












Track B
[Break in recording. Beginning of recording interrupted. The question was 'What do you remember of Woodberry Down when you first lived there' and the beginning of the answer was that the Refugee Council asked-]

TV: [00:00:00] London Borough of Hackney to give me property, and I got the one-bedroom flat, in Manor House, Woodberry Down Estate straight away and then when my family came over I changed to three bedroom. And at that time it was very easy to get accommodation. Woodberry Down, also very big as well, and I feel it’s very convenient to take Underground to the city, especially to SOAS to study and also to go to the city to do cleaning, so it’s very convenient for me. And also the whole area, also good enough for me, good enough for me, clean enough. It’s, as I explained to you that, to live like this I feel very happy. To compare with my house in Vietnam I have a better one, but I was a councillor in Vietnam and when the communists took over they also … we had to sell to take money to survive, and also to pay the ticket to escape. So, we have to live over the many years in difficulty, so I feel quite happy to have a council flat to live.


MZ: But was there, there was a good sense of community on that estate, do you think? [00:01:57]

TV: Yeah, the … But … for myself, because a lack of English and we don’t have enough English to discuss the local situation or estate situation, or the … so I don’t join any meeting at the estate at that time.


ES: What about contact with the people who lived around you, were they friendly or unfriendly? [00:02:26]

TV: Oh that’s very good, it’s very good, very friendly, yeah. And also if I have something I ask them to help, they really to help me. Especially later on when I have children to live there, to ask them to … sometimes I have to go out and I ask my neighbour to keep an eye on my flat next to them and they’re very pleased because it’s only the children inside the flat and my wife goes to the college to study, or I have to work and only three children in the hand, they very friendly and very helpful to help. But my principle and also Vietnamese to live in very good with the neighbours, it’s very key, very key thing to live everywhere, so we often to invite them to come to have tea or to share the Vietnamese food with them and they’re very happy to help and live very happy with our neighbour, in Woodberry Down area. And also to try to contact; I’m Catholic so I have good contact with local church in St Ignatius in Stamford Hill, or the Catholic church in Woodberry Down area.

ES: Okay

TV: And they’re very helpful as well, the priest sometime to come to visit us, to have meal with us, and we’re happy.


ES: And what about, how has the estate changed over the years? [00:04:33]

TV: The outside, there’s no change but the environment, cleaning, the security much, much better, yeah.

ES: There's been quite a lot empty property on that estate for some time hasn’t there? [00:04:49]

TV: Yeah, in the past, in the past, yes.


ES: Has there been any, anything as a result of that happening, or …? [00:04:58]

TV: Sometimes need time for the local people to prepare the flat, to give to the next family to move in, but in general the … not very long to leave it empty, yeah.


ES: And what about the development of Woodberry Down that’s going on right now? [00:05:26]

TV: Oh yes, very, very big development, it’s very big. But the government intend to finish in 20- in 2027, 2027, but now it slow a little bit because of no money, and still have a very big development there. As I explained to you that the council have nothing to pay, they give to the developers and they do everything, and get some unit by themselves, at commercial, and they’re quite happy to develop the whole area. But now slowly a little bit. In the past they intend to demolish quite large area but now only one part have been demolished and the way is now to, I don’t like this very much too, very high block, to cover a lot of space. The light, and also the ceiling is very low, like in Dalston, that’s where you can have a look at the flat to compare with previous one – it’s very high, very convenient. But to live in the flat in Dalston it’s very small, very small, very low ceiling, and you feel like in a box, not in a flat or apartment.


ES: What about the … are they building more private housing in the new development? [00:07:30]

TV: That’s the private but the same … the same, it means structure, it means small room, low ceiling and very high building. And also to compare with previous one it – the brick or the wall very solid, but now the wood inside because the economy, they try to reduce the price. So to compare with the old houses, I prefer, I’m lucky to have the very old house. I bought it in 1992 only £140,000, it’s very big house, now 700, or million. It’s a very big house, very big ceiling and large garden. But now no garden at all in the tower block,


ES: Yeah. Do you prefer being a homeowner or a tenant? [00:08:46]

TV: Of course, yes. The homeowner is much, much better, to have your own property and also in the future you can give it to your children, or to sell it. But I feel in the future I will make a will to my children to manage it, not allow to sell and to give the profit to give to charity. And I always said to them that I give you two big thing. Firstly to give you a chance to live in this country, secondly to give you a good education and now you have a good degree so you have to live by yourself, and then I don’t give you any … I will give to charity. Not allowed to sell my property but to let it and to get the money to have as charity, not rely on me. So I make the will already like this and tell my children that you also have a more good chance than me, because you are fluently in English and good qualification in this country, you have to contribute something and to the charity. In Vietnam and in this country as well a lot of people still need your help. Don’t use your money to have a super life, like to travel by first class or business class or holiday.What is therefore money for, to help the other.


ES: Well, thank you.

TV: Thank you for coming.

[00:11:22] - END OF TRACK B