Oral History Interview - Paul 'Rapzcallion' Ryan

Audio file

2018.72

Audio recording of an oral history interview with Paul 'Rapzcallion' Ryan. In this interview, he discusses African and Caribbean music (Reggae, Rave, Electro, Hip-Hop) in Hackney.

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[Transcript of oral history interview with Paul 'Rapzcallion' Ryan]

Q. This is Etienne Joseph on 14th May 2018. We are in Rising Tides - which is around the back of what is now the Hackney Picturehouse, before The Ocean. On Mare Street. And I am here talking to Paul Ryan a.k.a, is it DJ or just Rapzcallion.

Paul ‘Rapzscallion’ Ryan (PR). Just Rapzcallion.


Q. Although I’ve just said that, I’d like you to please introduce yourself and tell me when and where you were born, please.

PR. Wow! My name is Paul Ryan aka Rapzcallion as some people know me by. I was born in Hammersmith - for the first - I think it was about 9 months of my life we lived there and then we moved. According to my mum, we moved to Stoke Newington. We were there for a while, I think for a couple of years, and then when I was about three we moved to Kingsmead Estate. So from about 2-3, so that’s why when people say “Well, so, you are Hackney born and bred”. I’m kind of like …nah…
[00:01:17]


Q. You basically are though!

PR: I am - yeah, from three, so Kingsmead Estate from about three – two, three. I was raised in Kingsmead.


Q. What school was it you went to?

PR. I went to Kingsmead Infants, then Kingsmead Primary, then Daubeney Junior School, then Hackney Free which is now Urswick School.


Q. If you don’t mind me asking, I’m sure you’ll tell me if you do, why did you move to Hackney? What was the move about?

PR. What, my parents? You know, I have no idea. That's a good question. I need to ask my mum. I think it was a concentration of where the blacks were basically. I mean - but in saying that in West London, I don't know why - I wish we moved to Ladbroke Grove because then we could have had a big house. We could be laughing right now!

But for some reason we were in Stoke Newington, we were in a house apparently, even in Stoke Newington - why did we move to Kingsmead? Then we ended up in Kingsmead. The only reason I could think, it must have been money. Council flat - because unlike some newly arrived people from the Caribbean, my parents didn't buy straight away. I don't think they did. But in later times my mum decided to buy the council flat in Kingsmead. So she owns her house now, which is good. [00:02:41]


Q. So they came over. Was it kind of an economic migration?

PR. Yeah. I think it was part of the rebuild England after the war kind of thing. My mum came over as a nurse. My Dad came over as a carpenter, so he was a draughtsman.


Q. What's your first contact with music? What do you remember about your first contact with music?

PR. Well, like everybody else, my Mum's record collection. It was my mum's and my dad's, but my dad said it was his, my mum said…yeah, big argument there. But it was a record collection that was in the house. I remember we had the stereo on the side which was - was it High Fidelity? It was a nice stereo. I just remember I had to wait and everything because my dad was into the music kind of a thing and the speakers, so we had that.

When my mum came over, she bought one of those case, portable record players you open up and it's like a briefcase, so she gave me that. I remember having that in mine and my brother's bedroom. It was on a shelf and he used to take the records and just put them one, add the arm where you can stack up the 7s. Drop, drop, drop, drop, and that was my first contact. It was music like, I remember Jackson 5, 7 Inch, Marvin Gaye, yeah, that was the first contact.




Q. Was that “Black music”? [00:04:16]

PR. It was definitely Black music. But then later on, because you're an English boy, Hackney ran a lot of white kids pop music, I got into pop music. But from my early age I was exposed to a lot of different types of music. [00:04:37]


Q. That’s interesting. So you were going to school with a mix of all different types of people. What kind of influences is that bringing to you then?

PR. Yeah. Musically it was, you know what it was, the radio. I had a friend of mine called Andrew and every morning on my way to school I used to stop by his house. He lived just around the back of Wells Street, just near Wells Street. I used to go and pick him up, but always had to wait for him, and his mum was really nice, she’d bring us some toast - white guy - but the radio was always on, Radio 1, it’s Tony Blackburn. So I'm hearing all this music, I am hearing Duran Duran, I'm hearing The Police, I'm hearing Kajagoogoo, I'm hearing all this music. I'm like..it’s alright. It's got a little bit of a rhythm, and those were the days when pop white music was good, because I'm hearing David Bowie and I'm hearing The Beatles, I’m hearing all this kind of music. Then get into school, hanging around with white kids and black kids. The white kids are into, I dunno, let's say, Duran Duran, black kids are into, like, Reggae. [00:05:59]

So I'll go home and hear bits of Reggae on a Sunday -- and then hear a bit of pop on the TV. Top of the Pops was big. It was a big kind of melting point especially at school. As I said I had friends of mine who had brothers who were in sound systems - and these were black kids. Then I’d white kids whose dads had mobile discos and they're playing like all the cheesy stuff, but some of it was good. So that's how it all kind of melded together.



Q. In terms of the timeframe here, are we talking about the 1970s then? [00:06:23]

PR. We're talking late 1970s. No, 1980s.


Q. All right. Because I’m thinking Duran Duran is 1980s but then…

PR. Yeah. I'm talking about 1980s. 1980 to 1985 was when I was at Hackney Free.


Q. Okay. So you are talking about secondary school?

PR. I’m talking about secondary school.


Q. All right. I mean it sounds like you got a broad kind of musical influence, but then it seemed to me from talking to you before, hip-hop was quite a big thing in your life.

PR. Yeah.


Q. So when does that start to manifest?
PR. Yeah, funny. So I was originally, I was -- even though I listened to a lot of stuff from my mum's collections, I was into Reggae. My first introduction to - I would call it - sound system culture, which birthed hip-hop, was through all the sound systems.



Q. In Hackney? [00:07:20]

PR. In Hackney. So we're talking -- and even the sound systems that visited Hackney, so you had, Gemi Magic, Java High Power, Saxon - oh what's that other - can't even remember - but you got all the Jamaican sounds like Metro Media, Peter Metro. When I first heard Peter Metro, I was like ‘This guy’s wicked!’. So my introduction to that whole kind of culture was sound system, and then it was slowly, my first introduction to hip-hop culture was Electro Music.



[00:07:56 Informal Talk]


Q. So in terms of the Reggae now, those sounds… You’re probably the first person out of the people I've spoken to mention so many yard sounds - first of all - and also such a wide variety of UK sounds. And you’re saying they all came and played in Hackney at some point?

PR. All those sounds I've mentioned.


Q. So where would you go and see, like, Java?

PR. Upton House, which is now City Academy. It was Upton House first, then it changed into Homerton Secondary School, then it changed into City Academy. On that site, because they knocked down the old building, but that's where all the main clashes used to happen. That's where our first…



Q. So what was Upton House then? [00:08:39]

PR. It was a school. It's always been a school. Upton House was the school…so each school in the area had their, like, thing that they were really good at. Upton House was seen as a school, if you were really into sports and you're very sporty, you went up to Upton House. Upton House had the best football team apart from Hackney Free. Upton House had all the athletes, cricket, they had wicked sports facilities, that's what they were known for.

So all the sound systems on a weekend, they used to hire out the hall and that's where sounds used to clash. And that's where you'd hear, that's where I first heard Saxon, I first heard Tippa and Smiley Culture and - Tippa, Smiley, what's the other - Maxi Priest singing. So you'd literally have two sound systems, you had one sound system in one corner, set up, string up, then you'd have, like, Gemi Magic in another corner. It was like, unlike today, where it's everyone's on one set, it's like, who had the best sound system? So one sound would play [mimics sound system noises], they’d play their sound. The next one would come [mimics sound system noises]. “Inside Saxon Studio…wicked!”. It's so wicked and you are like…you’re hearing Dennis Brown dub plates. Dennis Brown, who I would idolise singing [sings] “Daddy Saxon dh-dh-dh, this is Dennis Brown”. You’re going crazy. And that was my first introduction to what I would call sound system culture. I was into Reggae, heavy. [00:10:15]


Q. So that’s the 1980s. Is it fair to say then, if you had big sounds and clashes in places like Upton House, then you had another set that were doing what shebeens and blues, which are like not as big as those big, big sounds?

PR. Yeah. But those sounds would do those as well. Also you've got to remember, around that time, just after that time was the rise of the Soul Sounds. That was the people who - were either - weren't into Reggae but liked sound system culture, so they'll set up their own sounds. So that'll be, sounds like, so let's say it sounds like Rap Attack, Mastermind from West London. All those other guys they’ll set up their sound systems.



Q. Trevor Nelson at the time as well? [00:10:04]

PR. Trevor is an interesting story. I know Trevor from when he worked in Pernessy’s(?) [00:11:12] shoe shop, which was on Mare Street, and that's when I first met him. He happened to tell me “Yeah, I DJ a bit”. So then Trevor set up - fast forward - set up Madhatters, that's Trevor, and I can’t remember the other guy who was in Madhatters, but that was their sound. They were down with Norman Jay, Jazzie [B], Soul II Soul, those guys - Shake and Fingerpop all those kind of guys. They used to do their kind of sound thing, the Reggae sound thing, then there was people like me caught in the middle. I loved Reggae but I also loved Soul. So I'm kind of jumping from there, to there, to there, to there.



Q. So there was no mix jump, there was no crossover? [00:11:49]

PR. Not at that time, no. Not until I think the soul sounds started to play a bit of Reggae, and then that's where it kind of moved into individual DJs. So then you had your Mysterys and your Desi Gs and Barry Whites and company soul sound. They were doing more of the blues dances and Shebeens. But further back, those Reggae sounds, even before those Reggae sounds, people like Lord Gelly and all those people at Four Aces, they'd done their Shebeen stuff which is a throwback to what my parents used to go to and they're playing rock steady…So the evolution was kind of, yeah. [00:12:30]


Q. So where were those - I haven’t forgotten electro and I haven’t forgotten what we’re talking about up to now and in terms of shebeen and kind of blues thing where, where would you go to go to a blues party in Hackney?

PR. Anyone's house, usually.


Q. So it wasn't an area, more so you would find yourself go to a party?

PR.But you see the thing is when I was growing up, those kind of places, they weren't shebeens, they were clubs. So you had Oasis.


Q. Where was that?

PR. Oasis was in Dalston -- I can't remember what it used to be called.


Q. Like, Kingsland Road, Dalston?

PR. No. Do you know where -- basically it's -- and the roads weren’t even there, Roseberry Avenue. So Roseberry Avenue is where the new library is now. Basically, there used to be a road that goes down there, and it was a club called Oasis. [00:13:16]


Q. That’s different from Cubies?, because Cubies was there as well.

PR. Same place. It was called Cubies, then it was called Oasis. And that was the advent of the people like Rampage. Rampage used to kill it there. [00:13:28]

Every Sunday night Rampage - what’s it Roy Medallion. And that was the advent of people who I’ve had sound systems but also on radio. So that's how they promoted the dances. So there was that. There was Pier One, which was on Kingsland High Road that is where -I can’t remember the place, what it's called now. There was - oh - Shenola's which is basically where the Olympic Park is now Waterden Road, which doesn't exist anymore. Shenola's, next to Shenola's was Club EQ. [00:14:06]

What else was there? Trendz nightspot, Trendz was on Amhurst Road. If you hit Amhurst Road from the traffic lights, you go down and you’ll hit more traffic lights and there used to be a petrol station on the left hand side. Just on the right hand side was Trendz, which was, I can’t remember what it was called before, but the Krays owned that, I mean back in the day. For some reason, somehow two brothers got hold of it, black guys, it was called Trendz, wicked place, a really, really nice place.



Q. What happened in Trendz, I’m curious? [00:14:38]

PR. Just raves.


Q. Different types of raves?

PR. Nah more or less the same kind of things. I would say more on the side of the rare groove, Soul kind of vibe, and that's another culture all in its entirety that I was into because I like any type of music. I’lll listen to anything from punk to opera, to jazz, to hip-hop, to soul. In those places you had a whole spectrum of black music. It would be less of the hip-hop stuff. It would be more the rare groove. Those are the places you go and you dress up. Whereas the hip-hop stuff, you know, you're putting your trainers and man’s trying to spin on the floor and kill himself. [00:15:26]


Q. Okay. This is a good time to go back to the electro thing because I think we can go back to hip-hop from there. So when does electro hit Hackney then?

PR. Oh, good question. God, I think I was at school. I would say around 1980, 1982. 1988 I went to New York. Early 1980s - maybe, no, not the 1970s. Early 1980s. About 1982.


Q. And how does it hit? Because I figured it probably happened across the country, right, so how did it…?

PR. Yeah. You know, it hit through - I'm trying to think - it hit through TV I think. For me, it was like seeing Rock Steady Crew on Blue Peter or something like that. You’re like, ‘These guys are spinning on – what are you spinning your head for? Oh it’s a new dance from New York, OK!’ and then the music came. It was basically people who had records would kind of like turn you onto a few things.

Then you had radio stations, you take your radio shows - can't remember who was on the back in the day, this was before [Tim] Westwood. I think you'd listen to stuff and people would swap tapes, like “You heard this thing?” What it's called? It's called electro, OK. It was all American stuff. My first electro - in terms of the first thing I bought was Electro…street sounds or was it street wave, Street Sounds Electro compilation Electro 2. [00:16:56]


Q. It was Street Sounds, were there about four of them?

PR. Yeah. No, they [inaudible 00:16:59]. The Street Sound ones went up to about 15 or 16, yeah, so that was my first introduction. But prior to that people were swapping tapes. You had tracks like [The] Wikki-Wikki [Song], Techno Scratch, Man Parrish, all that kind of stuff was coming. It was - my introduction through that - the person on Kingsmead [Estate] who introduced us all to that was a guy called BJ later known as Overlord X. [00:17:28]


Q. So he was quite important in grounding it?.

PR. Yeah, I would say yes. He was the man. He was the first person in our estate who had Technics SL-1200s.


Q. Oh Wow.

PR. He was the first person.


Q. The silver ones?

PR. Silver ones. He was the first person and he'd bring them out to The Wally Foster Community Centre which we'll talk about, he will bring out the decks. It was like, yeah, he was a DJ first and then he set up, yeah.

[Informal Talk]

Q. So you mentioned dance, you also mentioned BJ, and you mentioned your radio, so in terms of your experience in Hackney, what were the parts of that culture that would most kind of - were they balanced, or were there certain things that people took on more?

PR. Dance. If we look at chronologically, it was the dance thing that hit first in Kingsmead and Hackney and mostly before London because we had the whole Covent Garden scene. But for Kingsmead and Hackney, it was the dancing, you had two main crews. They were the Technique Breakers and Clear Crew. [00:18:53]

Technique Breakers and Clear Crew. They were both Kingsmead. Technique Breakers were set up by Overlord X - BJ - was Technique Breakers. And another guy called Colin John set up Clear Crew. Technique Breakers were more breakers. Clear Crew were more poppers, but they had breakers in it in their crew. Technique Breakers were known for their breakers. Both multicultural crews, which around that time - actually no, it wasn't surprising. There was a lot of black people in there and there was couple of white guys, but everyone was nice. No-one saw colour because of one person specialised in windmill, someone done flying windmill, someone done crab, someone did head-spin into backflip or whatever…[00:19:37]

It was a coming together of the cultures because everybody liked to dance. I think the first thing was the dance thing for us in those days - or for them, because I wasn't a dancer. It was a movement because everybody had their own uniform. I remember those guys used to go to Roman Road and go to Mr. Buy Right’s and buy matching tracksuits.

There was a shop down here on Mare Street called Gray’s owned by two white guys, old guys, and they sold white gloves. So back in the day they were kind of like gentleman's outfitters and top hats and blah, blah, blah, but they sold the white gloves. So you’d go down there, get your white gloves, man’s in their white gloves, poppin’... blah, blah, blah. And then you have your high tech high tops on and you Fila BJ tracksuits, and yeah, so it was a whole kind of movement. But that was the first thing that took hold.

Everybody wanted to break, everybody started popping and locking and breaking in their bedrooms and want to be in the crew. I did try, but I didn't make it though. [00:20:44] Nah. No one took me seriously. I was a joker when I was a kid, and I still am. I was Paul Ryan? Nah, nah. I was a kid that when their mum called - and it was on a regular basis, it was loud and it was… my mum always had to say, she couldn't just say “Paul come in for your dinner”. She’d say, Paul, come in now and bring the Rubik's cube it's for your education. [Laughs]

Oh, to this day, people still talk about that! “Remember your mum used to call you in and used to bring…?” Because I remember one day my mum bought me a Rubik's cube. I was like… ‘I gotta show my friends’. We was all out there playing. It was like wicked. My mum in the basement and she said, “Paul Ryan bring that Rubik's cube back in here, it’s for your education!” Oh really? Everyone just laughed and… “Bring it in!”. I said, “Mum, it's a toy”. “No, I bought it for you to expand your mind”. To this day I can't do a Rubik's cube, so it didn't work did it? So, yeah breaking, dancing was the first thing that hit. [00:21:43]


Q. Then what followed from there? You mentioned chronology, which is why I’m asking you that.

PR. Yeah, so it was breaking, dancing. It went into DJing because BJ had the decks. So some of us were like “Oh, he's got decks”. And he used to buy records, and so some of us splintered off and were like, OK, a whole record culture thing, so that was big on our estate. There was a couple of us who had started to build record collection.

So it was Colin John , Lloyd LeCrette(?) Collin John's brother who still lives on Kingsmead and he was the guy who had the musical knowledge. He was the guy who's got and still has every, every song and album that Roy Ayers ever done on original import vinyl. Pristine. He's, you know, you'd go to his house and he's slightly - yeah, I know he wouldn't mind me saying this Michael is a bit eccentric. He's just on a - but I loved that, he was just on a different level. You’d ask him a question and you’ll be like, so tell me about Roy Ayers. He will go “Yeah…Roy Ayers”. And he will think. He's one of the people that I just used to look up to just cause the way. He was different and he was very, he’d ponder over things and he would do things like this. And he will go “Yeah, yeah, yeah, Roy, you know he played vibraphone” - what’s that, what do you mean? Yeah, you know, how this thing - he was deep. The whole record culture for me and a couple of other friends took over and then the DJing came. [00:23:14]


Q. So your sound - two things out of that. One thing it sounds like, it's not like the 1990s where every person has a set of decks…Decks were quite a rarity at the time?

PR. Seriously, because I think Technic 1200 they were about £800 a piece. They were silly money, well actually…I think they were about £500 a piece, but even that's a lot of money. So when BJ came with two, it was like quick math, that’s a grand! Where are you getting…I’ve never seen a grand! How do you get a grand? How are you saving it up to get that? Like, yeah. So nobody had decks.

My first decks were a Pioneer and something else. Because you need a pitch control to mix, it had a little, like, dial pitch control, that's how you’re mixing. Like that. Whereas BJ had the - I'm like, woah, you had - he had the decks. He was the first person I knew on Kingsmead who had decks. I used to just watch him. When he used to bring his decks out, I’d say “Oh, can I have a little go?” He'd be like “Nah, not really.” All the time like “Don’t touch it. Paul, don't touch it”. I used to literally just sit, watch them break, just sit and watch them - literally doing that. Well, I shall I touch it?

One day I remember like thinking, because I think cause he was the first person to scratch as well, that I knew. I was like, I’m gonna have a go, man. I can remember, luckily nobody was dancing. The tune was just going around, I think he was showing somebody how to do a head spin or something. I just went ‘zzz’ [mimics record scratch]. “What's going on? What's going on? Paul, man don’t touch that thing!”. That was it, that was it. It was over for me. That one little ‘zzz’.

I just went back to my house, went back to my bedroom, took my mum's little stereo thing that she gave me, put a record on zz-zz, zz-zz. Messing up. All the 7s [inches] got messed up. I'm just there going with the volume control like this, zzz-zzz, zzz-zzz. [mimics conversation with his mum] “What are you doing?” “I'm scratching.” “What's that? What's this scratching business? That's not how the record is supposed to play!”. And yeah, so that was the first introduction to DJing. [00:25:20]


Q. I’m thinking about the record culture because, one thing that it's funny. I think it’s people's memories, I know there must've been a bag of record shops in Hackney. Because you don’t have people buying records without record shops, right?

PR. Yeah.


Q. What can you remember about the record shop culture in Hackney and were the shops big?

PR. It was big. So you had G&M Music which was basically opposite St. John’s Churchyard where there's a furniture shop there now -- well that furniture shop was always there -- next door to the furniture shop there was a little shop, it's called G&M Music. That was run by a guy called Colin Biggs, white guy, and that’s where Trevor Nelson first worked. So I met Trevor in Pernessy’s(?) [00:26:14] shoe shop, then he became a record importer. Then if I'm right, and I'm sure he would disagree with me slightly, then he worked in G&M Records. And then before that you had Regal Records on Lower Clapton Road which is now, Pages of Hackney bookshop I think. [00:26:34]


Q. Yeah, Eddie Regal? And that was mainly reggae or that was…?

PR. That was pure reggae, mainly reggae. They had a few little bits and pieces but the good thing about them is on Friday that place would be ram because that's when the import van from Jamaica all of the imports would come in. So it's literally… the count was about that high when I was a yout’, and ram. And Eddie would just play tunes. and so you just got to - give me that one. “New Beenie Man! New Beenie Man!” [He’d] put it on. You’d have about - one track you'd have about let’s say a Beenie Man and whatever rhythm, let’s say [? 00:27:09] rhythm. So you had that one track, Beenie Man, he had about four copies. If you didn’t bang your fingers, say “Eddie, gimme that”. Done. But on that rhythm you might have about 7 or 8 men voicing on that t[h]ing. So if you never got the Beenie Man you might get the Cableton, or get the blah, blah, blah. That was me. I was a hardcore reggae buying - those times, but I used to go in there and get certain bits and pieces, but it was a madhouse in there. So there was Regal Records, G&M Records. [00:27:35].


Q. What did G&M sell?

PR. Everything. So that was, you can get your hip-hop in there, you can get your rare groove in there, you could get your jazz stuff so you can get everything in there. And a few reggae 12s, they didn't really sell reggae 7s because obviously Eddie had that covered. G& M Records closed down and became Wired for Sound. Wired for Sound which is opposite Abbey National on the Narrow Way. So opposite Abbey National there’s a road which is Kelmscott Road, corner of Kelmscott Road. Recently it was like - not Cash Converters - it was like an ‘exchange cash for money’ thing. Prior to that it was Wired for Sound Records.

So they had…downstairs they had all CDs, upstairs had all the vinyl. I worked there for about, not long I forgot I was covering for somebody about six weeks or something like that. But again, that was Colin who had G&M Records. Once G&M closed down he started Wired for Sound. [00:28.38]


Q. Okay. Because I heard Wired for Sound through rave, and it was a pre-rave thing. When I say rave I mean rave was in the 1988 to 1992?

PR. Yeah because they had - they will get - all the rave stuff would go in there, all the house stuff - all the import stuff so all the hip-hop stuff.


Q. So hip-hop imports?

PR. Yeah, yeah, all my hip-hop imports, the majority of them came from Wired for Sound. And because I worked there for a while I knew Colin. I was a regular. you know, literally you'd go upstairs, Tony used to run upstairs Tony, Brian and Suzy, I saw Tony last week actually. Again, it was like Regal, on a Friday you got there - the good thing about that is you had, Tony always used to have a bottle of Couvoisier or somebody would bring Courvoisier. So Friday it's about - mostly around about 6 o'clock, people coming from work. People bring in what - sometimes it's about 4 or 5 bottles of rum or brandy, you get liquored, man just buying records. [00:29:43]


Q. It’s a culture then. You're not just going in and buying…?

PR. No, it was a culture because you'd have debates in there, people reasoning there, everybody who was into music would come there. Your weed man would come in there. It's like everything used to happen in there. We'd be debating, I mean Wired for Sound used to close around about 9pm, sometimes we’d be debating until midnight. Colin will come out and we sit down. Every kind of debate, black people, white people, racism, government, this, that and the other.

And then to top it all off it was the music. It was like if a Biggie Smalls 12” came in, Wired for Sound might have 10 copies of those. When they're gone, they're gone. They might not be able to reorder. So it's like Brian or Suzy or Tony will play the tune, new Biggie Smalls. And everybody would have their stack - and same with Regal - so you just put it on the stack. If you didn't have enough money, you say to Tony “All right put that in the back for me, bro” Yeah, when you come in, about a week, cool, cool, put it on a stack. If you had a big bag, Tony would say, “All right, give me a £10 hold that, cool, bam”. Then you can come in during the week and maybe take some, I’ll look in my bag, I need that, need to take that out. If you had money, some certain money bag man. Spending £50 to £100 was nothing to some people, you would spend money in there.

So that was Wired for Sound. Then you had Mr. Music. I think Mr. Music was Dalston, and that was Kenrick. [00:31:13]


Q. Okay. Dalston. What like was it near Ridley Road market?.

PR. No it was - Dalston Junction Train Station. You do a right and it was about two doors down.


Q. Okay. So it was near Four Aces then, kind of thing?.


PR. Nah, nah, nah. If you go past Four Aces -



Q. From the Kingsland Road?

PR. Let’s say from the bottom like you come up Graham Road -- so let’s say you're coming from Graham Road. Cross over Queensbridge [Road]. You pass Four Aces, you get off at Dalston Junction Tube station, you turn like you're walking down towards Ridley [Road]. On the right hand side, that was Mr. Music. I’m sure it was called Mr. Music.

Yeah. And there was another record shop in Mare Street but I can’t remember the name, that was a pop record shop. It just sold pop music. But you get your odd little bits and pieces in there in the bargain basement thing. So that was that. What else was there? I’m trying to think what else was there. There was…oh…no that was the main ones. That was the main ones. For Hackney, Wired for Sound was the place.
[00:32:22]


Q. During that - you’re talking 1980s into 1990s?

PR. Yeah. Wired for Sound was the place ’cause they had everything, all the jungle stuff, all the drum and bass stuff, all the early grime stuff was in there. People used to bring, do SOR, Sale Or Return. So I remember they have their box and say “Yeah, I’ve got this new track”. Tony would play it - or when I was working I’d play it - “Okay. Oh this is that track played on the radio?” “Yeah, yeah, big tune, give me 20 of them, cool, lovely, sale and return, cool, yeah, lovely, gone”.

And then people will come in “You’ve got that track?”. People would come in and sing music because they didn't know… “What’s the track that goes [sings]...Gabriel, Gabriel…”. “Oh Roy Davis Jr.?” “Yeah, yeah, you got that?” “Yeah, there you go”. Import, [£]5.99, bang! People come and it's got a bit that goes…[mimics jungle beat] Okay, I don't know what that is, and it's got a bit that goes [mimics Original Nuttah by UK Apachi]. “Oh, okay UK Apachi. Cool, right, now I know what you're talking about, there you go!” “Yeah, give me two of that because I wanna mix it.” “All right, cool, there you go”. And that’s how it went. That was the culture. [00:33:31]

Q. Let’s go back - so you’re talking about…so Overlord X a.k.a BJ and so you're dealing with hip-hop then, so what is your…How did you get the name Rapzcallion then? How did that come up?


PR. Pff! That’s…you’re fast forwarding! [Laughs]

Q. Ok, keep going. So then from there - so the from there, you're moving into hip-hop then or you’re still kind of like -

PR. Yeah I'm still kinda dabbling because from there, so it was hip-hop. It was electro more or less back then, and then from electro I kind of got into the rave scene. There was another DJ on our estate called Michael, Mike Lloyd, who now is Mike ‘Ruffcut’ Lloyd. He’s still on Kingsmead. So, me and Michael became friends because he was the second person who I knew - second or third - because Colin John I think had - Colin and Michael had decks. Mike Lloyd had decks so he was the one who taught me how to DJ. I learned how to DJ from him. I used to go to his house and his bedroom. He had the deck set up. His mum was lovely…because Michael had some big speakers and I don’t how she allowed him!

But it was really funny because when I saw Michael’s decks and I've got decks and our parents, man! When I look back on it, we were thumping some weight. My mum was cool with it. She kind of liked it, she’d say, I like that song. She’d knock on the door. She’d say, “Paul your dinner's ready and what’s that something you’re playing?”. “Oh it’s a remix of a Luther van Dross thing”. “Oh, I thought I recognised-”.
So Michael was instrumental in teaching me how to DJ, so the mixer, decks, blah, blah, blah. It was so transpired that I learned to DJ as a left-handed DJ, right-handed DJs would have their right hand on the mixer, crossfader, DJ I like that. I learned to DJ like that. [00:35:29]


Q. Even though you’re right-handed?


PR. Even though I’m right-handed. For years, I used to think it was because Michael was left-handed. Years later we had a chat about it, he said, “Nah, I'm right handed as well!”. How did we do that? So I can't…this is my weaker hand DJing, I'm like that. People were like “Are you left-handed?”. “Nah!”. So you’re DJing the wrong way around. But anyway, so yeah, so then with me and Michael now, we got into the whole kind of rave scene and hip-hop. He was the rave, house-y kind of guy. I was the hip-hop guy. [00:36:08]



Q. Rave house, so you’re in what 1987, 1988?



PR. Maybe before - yeah - around 1985.




Q. 1985? Oh okay, so like Chicago house, you’re talking?

PR. Yeah. House and then we went into the popper house, the rave stuff, and then we went into the garage stuff. I dropped out of garage stuff, but rave stuff and hardcore.

We’ve done a rave called Sun – was it Sun Dance? Sunrise or was it Sun Dance? Sun something at Chats Palace.


Q. So what was rave looking like in Hackney?

PR. Rave was big! Because we had all the warehouses. We had the warehouses, there was always a big rave in Hackney Wick when it was all warehouses and that for us was literally walking across the Mabley Green and go raving.


Q. So those ones were not venues, that’s just warehouses?

PR. They were literally warehouses. Places like Shenola's would have proper raves in there. You'd have warehouses where…bottom of Mount Pleasant Road, which is from Upper Clapton - where I live now, I live on the river. But prior to that there used to be a road…[Theydon Road]...warehouses and raves in there. So yeah, the rave scene was big in Hackney. Big in Hackney. You got the radio stations. Radio DJs talk about rave where you have to like… “Yeah, we're all meeting on the M1! Exit blah, blah, blah”. And you’d be at a petrol station, you’d drive down …And it's like, yeah, I remember around that time, me and Michael said, yeah, let’s do a rave. At Hackney. It was at Chats Palace. It was looking dire because that night or that day there was another rave, I think it was Rain Dance.



Q. Oh wow. That’s a big rave as well!

PR. A big rave. Rain Dance was happening, but at the eleventh hour we heard that Rain Dance got cancelled. So we’ve got our flyers, we got some people to go down there and flyer that. So our rave was jammin’! It got closed down. I remember the venue got a bit like… “What’s going on here?”. Police came and everything. Weren’t no trouble, just like “You gotta lock this off now”. “But it’s only 1 o'clock!”. “You gotta lock it off”. But that was bad. So with Michael it was a whole…my journey kind of went a little skew-whiff, even though I was still into hip-hop, it went into the rave thing, but I was always hip-hop. [00:38:28]


Q. You mentioned radio just now, well I’m interested in rave radio in Hackney, if you could speak about that. But then pre- that kind of Sunrise, Pule, Rush, those kind of stations, Fantasy pre- those are there any pirates in Hackney that you can recall? No one seems to be able to tell me that!

PR. I can't remember. I know - y’know, I can't remember any pirates in Hackney. Was there any pirates in Hackney?


Q. I guess if you're listening to them, it's not always like you would know that they were in Hackney.

PR. Exactly. I mean there was, I mean. See that's a Trevor Nelson question, or them guys. Kiss was up the road in Islington. All I can remember is that me…Michael was on Passion radio. I think that was local. I remember doing a show with him once that was - I can't even remember where that was.


Q. Was that a rave station?

PR. Yeah, before that because I remember playing hip-hop on that station. But then yeah, I mean we all listened to Horizon radio and LWR which is Zak [Zak Dee], and when Zak finished LWR he started Buzz FM. I was on Buzz FM for a little while which was based in Finsbury Park. In terms of radio, again like you said, you never knew where they were, you just knew, if you could pick them up, and if you… The stronger you can pick it up, yeah, okay, that must be local, and that was it. But yeah, it's hard to pinpoint where those radio stations were because by their very nature, they're not going to tell anyone where they are because of DTI, so yeah. [00:40:13]


Q. Okay. So you’re a hip-hop DJ who did rave? [Laughs]

PR. [Laughs] Yeah, basically!


Q. I suppose at that time there is, like thinking about PJ and Smiley and there was some level of crossover at some point that happens there. So, then I guess that's not out of the ordinary?

PR. No, because when you think about it, so I was saying to you the other day, Dr. K was a hip-hop DJ, and he changed his name to DJ Hype because he got into the whole rave thing. Ron Samuels, DJ Ron was hip-hop. He changed his name - well, he didn't change it - he just evolved into this rave DJ. I remember back in the day he was the first person that I remember - him and Mike Lloyd actually - the first people to mix rave and reggae. They were the first guys to do that. [00:41:12]


Q. Right, PJ reckons it was them.

PR. Most probably as well, most probably. But I remember Ron mixing rave and reggae and it blew my mind. I remember Mike doing it. PJ and Smiley came with stuff and it's like “What is this Shut up and Dance?” £20 to get in, £10 to get in? That was one track, £20 to get in. And I’m like, what!? I’ve still got them tunes there.
So yeah, you know what, Hackney was one of those places. It was melting point of different music, music styles and people doing different things. So with the rave thing people are like, “Okay you’re DJ. ‘Cause you DJ reggae, that means you could DJ that”. And people just evolved over time. So Mike, when I knew Mike ‘Ruffcut’ Lloyd, me and Mike were doing a lot of…he was in the hip-hop and rare groove because he used to…he's one of the guys who used to buy and sell rare groove tunes. I used to get a lot of my rare tunes from him, that’s a whole ‘nother thing that I was into, two-step and rares. [00:42:16]


Q. Were there venues that used to really play that in Hackney?

PR. Rare groove stuff? Oasis, Shenola’s, Club EQ, for a very short period of time when Hackney Central - where Oslo was called Hackney Central, before that it was called…originally it was called the most stupidest name in the world! It was called OO! Mankind. Oo, two Os, Mankind, that was the name of the place. It was like, why are you calling it that? Soul II Soul used to DJ there. I think on a Sunday night or a Saturday night. Also Pyramid Arts Centre which isn’t even -


Q. That’s Ashwin Street?

PR. Yeah, Ashwin Street. So Soul II Soul, the first time I saw Soul II Soul was there.


Q. At Pyramid?

PR. Yeah. They were doing two deck mixes. Soul II Soul used to do a lot of house raves back in the day. Because they’re a sound system. Those clubs and Pier One and places like that. That's where all the two-step, rare groove…but that's another big scene that's, you know, Company Soul Sound and those kind of guys.


Q. When you're talking about Biggie [Smalls] and that kind of hip-hop, I guess, early to mid 1990s?

PR. Yeah. Early to mid 1990s.


Q. Are there places catering for hip-hop in Hackney or is that not really a Hackney scene?

PR. That's a good question. I would say nah, the hip-hop stuff was more Central London, South London. Hackney was more kind of a rare groove, reggae, kind of obviously the rave system, the rave culture. Hip-hop had links and glimpses here and there but I would say it was more reggae, rare groove, rave culture with Hackney.
[00:44:02]


Q. Why do you reckon that is?

PR. Traditionally Hackney - according to my mum and dad - Hackney was reggae. Four Aces was massive back in the day.


Q. But there were soul bands there?

PR. Well, Four Aces had rave. They had rave as well. I don’t know why. I'm trying to think if there was a regular hip-hop club, and I don’t think there was.


Q. Someone missed that.

PR. Someone missed the slight trick there. I can't remember any clubs that done like a hip-hop night. It was more, if you wanted a hip-hop night it was like you'd go Heaven Under the Arches which was [Tim] Westwood. And what's that, was it Colin Faver? One of them guys, and Heaven was a gay club, but that's where you’ve heard hip-hop on a Thursday night, Heaven Under the Arches was the place. And then you had places like the Raw Club which was Tottenham Court Road. Mud Club. You had the clandestine like Shake and Fingerpop and that was Norman Jay and them kind of guys. You had Soul II Soul on a Sunday, down Africa Centre. I can't remember going to any. And all those places would play rare grooves, not the two-step rare groove but the James Brown stuff, we get the break-y stuff and hip-hop. That’s where you get your hip-hop fix from. You had like big raves like Westworld, which happened like four times in a year and that was in the Academy. So I used to have to travel to hear my hip-hop. [00:45:36]


Q. I know this is jumping - it’s edging forward a little but just bear with me. In terms of like, so called, UK hip-hop then…because I know during the 1980s and 1990s, early 1990s, you've got some-

PR. A sprinkling, yeah.


Q. There's some point where that turns into like a little bit more of a flow? Apart from Overlord X, are there other hip-hop artists in Hackney that you can remember?

PR. Not a lot. But then you've got Definition of Sound. Definition of Sound were a hip-hop group. There was the Don [Weekes] and Kev [Kevin Clark]. Kev is from, I don't know where Kev’s from. I think he's from west London. Don is from the square, Clapton Square. And he always used to come to Kingsmead [Estate] because the square is literally across the park and you're there. So Don was in Technique Breakers or was he in…? No, Don was in Clear Crew, and Kev…I don’t know how Kevin and Donald linked up because they were from two different parts of London. They started this group called Definition of Sound and they were signed to Circa Records. They got a major deal after Overlord X and X Posse. X Posse was signed to Island. I think Julian Palmer signed them. [00:46:59]


Q. So X Posse and Overlord X is..?

PR. It's the same thing. So it’s Overlord X and X Posse, which was an extension of all these other people. It was a bit like Public Enemy - just before Public Enemy basically. They had different splinter groups off of that, they had about 4 or 5 different groups. It was them and then the other group, as I said Definition of Sound, they had a major deal with Circa. I think they had one album out, but their stuff was more…whereas X Posse was kind of hardcore hip-hop, Definition of Sound was more akin to early De La Soul kind of a bit poppy, bit too poppy in places. But, you know, one of the first groups to have, like, wah-wah guitars in there… “What’s this bruv? … I’m getting paid for it, I don’t care”. Their videos had, all like, bright clothes and they’re bouncing around and sat in and like “What’s this bru?. But you know you got paid for it.

So I'm trying to think if there's anybody else who came out at Hackney, I can't think of anybody else. They were always around. So, around that time you had London Posse, South London. Demon Boyz, Tottenham. They were the main ones, and you got everybody else in between, I mean you had MC Duke - all these guys came from - most of them are from South London. Hackney from what I can remember didn't have much, had a lot of - a few breaking crews. But then again yeah, Wally Fosters breaking… [00:48:30]


Q. Wally Fosters. Let's talk about that because my understanding is - you can tell me if it's right or wrong - that a lot of that kind of dance clash culture either there, or at least outside of it wasn't even venues like club venues it was at other spaces. Could you explain a little bit more about that?

PR. Wally Fosters was Hackney’s equivalent of Covent Garden for clashes and monumental clashes up in there. You had like Danny Francis who was in - I think Danny was in Popping Wizards. Danny Francis was one of the premiere dancers.


Q. So Popping Wizards were not a Hackney crew?

PR. No. I don’t even know where Popping Wizards were from, all these crews were - BJ would know, I’ll put you in contact with BJ he would know. So Popping Wizards versus Clear Crew or Technique Breakers. So Technique Breakers and Clear Crew were the home team. Everyone used to come down to clash, you had Sidewinders and London All Stars come down and break and it's like, you know, that's where all the clashes used to happen. And that's all the infamous battles.

You had Mark Monero, who was one of the best poppers in London at the time and could glide. One glide and man’s all over the other side of the room. It was like “Rah! Mark is just gliding across there and he’s doing the ting and he’s getting into man’s face and he’s gliding back, gliding around him! Like, rah!”

Yeah, so Wally Fosters was the Mecca for that. Yeah, yeah. It was off the chain man. [00:50:04]


Q. And that's my understanding, as well, is that younger people that are doing that, we're not talking like people in their 20s and 30s. Like teenagers?

PR. No, yeah, teenagers. Wally Fosters, you know, that whole culture was us when we were like 16, 17…15 even some of the younger guys. We set it up. It was a club night from what I can remember. We just turned it into like, okay, we get the decks out. BJ would bring his decks.


Q. You say club night, like a youth club night?

PR. So a youth club night, yeah. It was a youth club night. No, sometimes we'd play football in there. But more and more we'd have battles in there. Man would come down people, literally, you go there just to hang out. And also another place which done a few things was Banister. Banister House is further up Homerton High Street opposite, where it used to be a petrol station and now it's…I think it’s Co-op on a Homerton High Street. Basically, Banister House had a room in there, to do stuff in there. It was mainly, Wally Fosters was the main place. Banister House had a couple of dances and Clapton Rangers, which is now Concorde Youth Club. [00:51:18]

That's where I first bought out my decks. I think one day somebody said “Yeah, yeah, we are going to have a little rave, can you bring the decks?” So my decks weren’t Technics, they were like, one was Pioneer and one was and one was an Akai, that's it! One pioneer, one Akai. My Pioneer speakers and I went to put them in… I can't remember how I got them down there. I think a couple of guys, were were just literally walking round Kings [Kingsmead Estate] with all of our stuff. Set it all up, got my Realistic mixer and I'm just there going [mimics record scratching]. “Bah! Paul’s bad. Paul’s wicked man!”. I remember somebody came up to me and said “Oh, you need a DJ name, you need a name”. And my first name was, which not a lot of people know, it was Rad Radical. [00:51:58]


Q. Rad radical?

PR. Red Radical. Around that time, I must've been about 16. I was like, I had the mum who's always about, reading about your history, read about that. So it was all like, yeah, when Muhammad Ali was on TV, oh, that’s a black man. Read this book, this is where we from. So she’d bring me all these books with good images and positive images “We’re from Africa.” “No, I’m from Hackney?”. No, no, no, let me tell you, my mum used to sit me down and telling me all this stuff. Yeah.

So come 16, 17 I'm going around calling, saying “Black man…white man is devil man! Black man rise up!”. In school… in remember in school, in Hackney Free, we were doing history, I remember distinctly. And this got my mum, my mum had to come up [to the school].

In history, and they were talking about wattle and daub houses, you know how - I'm sitting there and that's talking about Henry VIII and everything. I remember just sitting there. I just remember putting up my hand like this. “Paul, do you have a question?” “Yes, miss, yeah”. “What is it? Why are we” -- and I remember specifically what I said, I said -- “Why are we not talking about our glorious past?” “We are, we are talking about Henry VIII” “That's not my past. I'm a black man. Henry VIII was white. What about kings and queens of Egypt?” Disrupted the whole class got sent out the class.

My Mum came down. I remember the teacher saying, oh, your son disrupted the class. She said “What did he say?” She said “He said, why don't we study about our glorious past? And then my mum said something like “What do you think he meant by that?” She said “Well, he qualified that by saying it talks about Egypt and we should be talking about Egypt, and Egypt came before Henry VIII”. My mum said, well, what's wrong with that? She said, well, it's a shock to the class. “But he's right”. From there, I must have been just about 14. Mad.

Fast forward because someone is like “Yeah, Paul man you’re radical, you're just radical” Rad Radical, yeah. And the Rad stood for, I can't remember what it stood for, but it was Rad Radical. That was it. When we've done our rave, when me and Mike Lloyd done our rave session at Chats Palace, I was the Rad Radical MC. I still got our flyer, somewhere, somewhere. [00:54:16]


Q. Still got the flyer? So you used to be like a scratch DJ then?

PR. No, I never got - you know what my thing is always - and it's gone into adult life. I don't have patience. That's why I couldn't be a dancer because you have to practice so much, it's long! DJing, I liked mixing.

As I always said to people and I say to people now, I've never put myself up as a DJ. That's why you don't have DJ Rapzcallion. I'm a sound man. Even up to the other day I was talking to somebody, he said “Yeah, DJ Rapzcallion”. Just Rapzcallion man, I'm a sound, I'm a sound system. I play like a sound man. I'm the DJ who could hold the mic and play the tune and say, yeah - that's how I do it.

But you know what, I learned better to mix, scratching, I can scratch but not like pogoing that's a different level. I didn't have the patience for that. I just want to hear a tune. I want to see people dancing. That's how I DJ. So, yeah. [00:55:09]



Q. That’s the crowd…I ain’t got time to get into it too much but crowds I think prefer that anyway. I think a lot other technical things…as long as you keep the groove -

PR. Exactly, exactly. And that's why if you'd watch people like - sorry to segue a bit but - Premier and Jazzy Jeff are prime examples of the DJs who can scratch but they can rock a party.



Q. Did you ever hear them play?

PR. Not a lot.


Q. They do a bit but…They do just enough to…yeah.

PR. Yeah. [mimics record scratching] That's competition stuff. And no one -- no, you can't. You just watch someone go, that’s wicked - or you get your phone out and video that - but I was always keep the dance rocking, keep the dance rocking.


Q. One more thing I wanted to ask you. Funnily enough, when we did the advisory panel, you were talking a lot about dubplate culture. I want you to explain why that's so important as part of the story. It sounds like no one else has really mentioned it, but you were like “Yeah, dubplate culture, cutting dubplates”. So why is that important?

PR. It goes back to reggae. It's about the exclusivity of the music you're playing. It's about the DJ or the sound having a piece of music that nobody else has. One, which could be done with getting rare groove tracks. That’s what rare groove was all about back in the day. But dubplates was about, y’know, having a track that nobody else had and better still, having a track, which everybody knew, but the artist is singing your name. Like, [sings] “Rapzcallion is the man, n-n-n-n”. [00:56:52]




Q. So you used to cut plates?

PR. Nah, I couldn’t afford it! [Laughs] I had no money. I've got one dubplate, which was done by, I can't remember his name, Junior Dangerous, who's a friend. He's a brother of a good friend of mine. He got signed to a label and at that time I was a prominent DJ. So the label said “Oh alright, we’ll get you to cut some dubs. Which DJs?” and he said “Yeah, gotta get Rapzcallion”. So I’ve got one tune, it says “This is Junior Dangerous, no man can play like Rapzcallion the big DJ…” at the beginning. Like “Whaaa-!”. I played that to death! Rapzcallion. It's like, oh cool, yeah. Which reminds me, I’ve gotta rip it and put it on an MP3.

So the dubplate thing was more for all the drum and bass DJs cut dubs. Not so much the hip-hop DJs, only later on I think hip-hop - actually no, hip-hop, they didn't cut dubs. It was more the rave scene, the reggae scene, the rare groove scene, it was that thing. I was always interested in that. But in hip-hop dubplates weren't -
[00:58:00]


Q. Could you cut [dub]plates in Hackney?

PR. Yes, there was Freddy… was it JTS?
Q. JTS. It that Jah Tubby’s?
PR. No. What did – I can't remember what JTS stood for. It was off Homerton High Street.


Q. Homerton High Street. Digby Road?

PR. Yeah.


Q. They used to cut dubplates there?

PR. Yeah. Freddy was a guy, Freddy Minto, Freddy went to Upton House. I knew Freddy and he was rave too. I mean he was cutting up, raves, beginning of grime. He did some of the grime. Some of the grim tunes mention Freddy at JTS. I don’t know what, but yeah, Freddy, yeah. So that was more the grime, all the grime guys cut, all the drum base cut, hip-hop guys didn’t cut dubs, they used-. All you had to do as a hip-hop DJ is make sure you are at Wired for Sound on a Friday when the man coming, the import van come in, and when men say “New Biggie Smalls” you have that, yeah take that, I have to listen to that, gimme that. If you didn't like it you just bring it back, “No I don’t like that”. So our exclusivity was to get the four tracks that came into the country or the four tracks… Biggie Smalls tracks that came to Hackney. I think you're playing that night. I'll be in front, I'll be in on a Friday because now I'm DJ on Saturday so I’m buying tunes. Buying tunes. [00:59:24]


Q. But you’re not DJ in Hackney you are just DJing…

PR. No. Yeah, it's all around. Not so much Hackney, not at all.


Q. Because you are hip-hop?

PR. Yeah.


Q. All right. You said you were going tell me, where did Rapzcallion came from?

PR. Okay. Rapzcallion came… I left school, I had left school, with like one CSE, in like Religious Education. I always liked writing. I went to college, done access course, journalism, then went to University of Westminster.

Prior to that, I was trying to get my name out. I wrote for a magazine called Mothership, which was formed by a woman - well woman, she was my age - girl called Angela Okoma. Angela is very instrumental in hip-hop. I met her in college. She still lives in Hackney. She lives… she would be brilliant to talk to! Angela, I need to write that down. I need to introduce you to, Angela Okoma. Like mad hip-hop girl! She used to come to college. She was the first girl I saw with locks and it had like red ribbon in it and mad and like she bomber jacket, A1 bomber jacket, Republican. She was radical, radical, Angela. So let me write that down. So, wrote for them. Done an article for Mothership and the first article I ever wrote was about Hannibal . Yeah, it's my first… [01:00:48]


Q. So you had a radical opinion then?

PR. Yeah. I wrote it under that name Radical. I think it was under that name Radical. Or Rad90 ‘cause 1990. It was Red Radical first. In 1990, I was called Red Radical. I wrote this article about Hannibal which was basically, the premise of it was ‘Why are Europeans, especially Italians and Spanish, why do you get dark skinned white people?’ It's called Hannibal, but when it came over. It was like he came over the Alps and all these black men from Africa need to do something, init! [Laughs]

So yeah, and then I thought okay, what was big at the time? Kiss had a magazine called Free, used to read that a lot. There was a magazine called Soul Underground. I was like, okay, I really liked writing. I will try and be a journalist. Free turned into Touch magazine, I read Touch magazine the first couple of issues and I thought, man I can write, I can write, of course, I can write.

Literally, Touch was in Hackney - no, it was in Brixton. Went to the offices and literally just walked in and said “Yeah, I’m Paul Ryan I can write”. With the editor, like a badman! So there’s like white people - a smattering of black people - just white people…”Excuse me, I can write init!”. Well, gimme a job in there! You need a black man writing about hip-hop because you've got a white guy doing the hip-hop column, cool, cool, but you need a black guy! So editor said “All right, I'll call you” “Better call me, better call me!”

Two weeks later he called me. “Is this Paul Ryan?” “Yes. It’s Jamie from Touch magazine.” “Oh yeah, yeah, cool, cool, cool.” “Do you want to write an article?” “Yeah. Okay.” “I've got an interview for you. You have to get to this hotel and you're going to be meeting a rapper called Young MC.” “I know Young MC. Yeah.” “So you know he's originally from England.” “Yeah, I know that.” “I need you to interview him.” That was my first article. [01:02:37]

Fast forward, now I'm writing all these articles, about 3 or 4. The hip-hop columnist at the time for Touch magazine was a guy called Jonathan, who's name I forget. So I met…Touch we have these monthly meetings of all the contributors and we sit down and chat. So he came up to me, he said, “Yeah, Paul Rapzcallion…yeah, Paul Ryan. Yeah. Yeah, your stuff is wicked man.” I said “Yeah, yeah.” “You know what man, I feel kind of funny”, this one - literally what he said to me, it shocked me. He said, “I feel kind of funny.” I said, “Why?” “I'm a white man talking about black culture and I can't do it justice.” I said, no, you're column is quite good.” “Yeah. But you know, I'm thinking of moving on and you know, I've spoke to Jamie, the editor, and I think you should take over that column.” “Really? You know, cool.” I took over the column.

My column was very much, I wanted to write my column, the way I spoke, that was always my thing. So had loads of slang in it, before Americans called it ebonics and that - it was just pure slang because that's the way I talk to people and people loved it. It was radical as well. I was just like, I don’t know how they printed it, but I was saying things like ‘Yeah, the devil, the devil this, the devil that and blah, blah, blah, and that's when the ordination of Islam come blah, blah, blah, blah, blah” And they were printing ‘The black man is God’. Well it's kind of stuff I am writing in the column.

So one day I was out, I can't remember where I was, but I was in Hammersmith Palais. Fat Freddy M. He came up to me, he said, “Yeah man, young guy, I like your stuff”. I said “Cool.” I said “Freddy Man, I need a name. I need a name.” He goes - yeah, go back a bit. The day I took over - the month I took over the column, Jamie wrote an article, his, forward as the editor like ‘This is happening, this is happening and a young Rapscallion Paul Ryan is taking over the column’. Fast forward to “Freddy, I need a name”. He goes “What about Rapscallion?” I said “What does that mean?” Went home, looked it up. Rapscallion, a lovable rogue. And you are into rap, Rapzcallion! I said, yeah. [01:04:44]


That's how it came. It backfired on me a bit because people just thought because my name was Rapzcallion, I just played rap. Then I realised how many people are uneducated! “Rapzcallion, you just play rap init”. “Why do you say that?” “Because your name’s Rapzcallion”. “Rapscallion is a word, look it up”. Oh, okay. I couldn't change it, it just stuck, and that's how I got the name Rapzcallion. [01:05:11]


Q. Okay, makes sense! Good story, that’s a good story! I'm kind of late now, so I'm going to fade out. I would like to ask you though, what are key things that I haven't asked you that you think I should have?

PR. No, you've done quite well. I'm just trying to think. If we're talking about, I mean, you know what. You got sounds, people like Rampage. I met Rampage when Rampage wasn't even Rampage in a little bar in Chatsworth Road.


Q. So Rampage, I didn’t know. I didn’t know Rampage were a Hackney sound?

PR. They are not at Hackney sound from what I know. Is one of them from Hackney? No, they're not. no, they're not. They're not Hackney sound. But a lot of sounds played in Hackney. I mean Ron will be able to talk to you about a lot of stuff.. There's a lot of sounds in and around Hackney like Beat Freak and all that. Street sound culture was big. In terms of Hackney and hip-hop. I think the thing about Hackney and hip-hop was that there was a big dance scene then it faded out. I think everybody went into the whole rave scene, and then for us hip-hop you have to go outside of Hackney, but yeah. [01:07:05]


Q. That's cool. Thank you.

PR. You're welcome, man!


Q. Paul Ryan aka Rapzcallion.

Q. Yes, sir.