Oral History Interview - Fred Cooke & Chris Cooke

Audio file

2001

2019.3

Audio recording of an oral history interview with Fred and Chris Cooke. Fred and Chris Cooke are brothers who were born in Hackney. They ran 'Cooke's Eel, Pie and Mash' shop on Kingsland Road in Dalston, originally set up by their grandfather.

Total Length - 1 hour, 16 minutes, 44 seconds

[00:00:04] Introductions, mother and father meeting, history of family shops, general family history

[00:02:35] working life of parents and grandparents, strict upbringing, childhood, working in the shop as children

[00:07:36] History of pie and mash, history of family business, pie, mash and eels in the past, decline of pie, mash and eels nowadays, eating of eels in other places

[00:14:55] ‘Cooke’s’ pie and mash empire, history of the Cooke family business, Manze family business, operations of a family business

[00:19:17] Relation to other Cooke restaurant proprietors

[00:21:56] Manze restaurants, other ‘multi attraction’ restaurants, desire to sell pie, mash, and eels only

[00:24:17] Various roles worked in the shop

[00:26:35] Daily tasks in the shop, managing shop staff, Father’s health, taking over the business

[00:31:49] being young men in Dalston in the 1950s, Dalston area and community in the 50s, busyness of the pie and mash shop, being open in the evening

[00:36:17] Ridley Road traders and history, traders eating in the shop, community of Ridley Road market in the 1950s,

[00:39:53] Ex British soldiers band

[00:41:25] Father’s health, hobbies, maintaining roots in Dalston

[00:43:03] Meeting their wives, wives’ help running the shop

[00:46:12] Diversifying the business, introduction of hot and cold drinks, serving Coca-Cola

[00:49:20] Regular customers, famous customers - Alfie Bass, Arthur Mullard, Barbara Windsor, compliments for the food, appearance on LBC radio station

[00:53:46] Procuring live eels

[00:57:40] Supplying other shops with eels, general eel business

[00:59:27] Competitors to their shop

[01:01:23] Publicity, interviews, fashion shoots at the restaurant with Naomi Campbell and Kate Moss, Panorama programme, ‘Can't cook, won't cook’ at Alexandra Palace, BBC conducting interviews at the restaurant,

[01:04:55] Andy Peters, interview with Boy George,

[01:08:07] Getting listed building status, pros and cons of listed building status

[01:09:56] Reasons for selling the restaurant

[01:12:20] Feelings about selling the restaurant, selling a the right time

[01:14:03] Relief of finding a new buyer

[01:15:07] Always being a part of the restaurant building

Cookes Pie and Mash Shop (Subject of)

Cooke, Fred (Subject of)
Cooke, Chris (Subject of)

Dalston (Place)

Image copyright Sarah Ainslie.

No

Interview with Fred and Chris Cooke. Interviewer: Alex Sydney - 21st June 2001


Q. This is Alex Sydney interviewing Fred Chris on the 21st of June 2001. Um okay I don't need the dates but if you could just sort of tell both tell me, starting with you Fred, where you were born? [00:00:04]

Fred Cooke (FC). Yeah no problem. I was born in 1940 and I was born within sort of half a mile of here at Mildmay Park in the maternity home there.


Q. Okay, Chris? [00:00:32]

Chris Cooke (CC). Likewise, I was also born in the Mildmay maternity home and I was born in 1944.


Q. Okay. First of all, could you just tell me a bit about your parents and your family? Did you have … obviously you’re well-known brothers, but did you have other siblings as well or? [00:00:42]

FC. No, we’re the only two. I think they had two and they thought that's enough. [laughs]


Q. What about your mom and your dad? [00:01:02]

CC. Well, our father, our grandfather actually was a proprietor of F. Cooke and Sons and he run this business here with his son Fred who's our pop, and opposite us there was a very famous fish shop and gentleman who run that was a very astute fishmonger and his daughter was also sort of member of his staff and I think our father looked over the road and saw this rather nice looking chick and thought, ‘hm, that could be interesting.’ Hence, we had one grandfather on the other side of the road and our grandfather here. So, two grandfathers trading opposite each other.


Q. And was that quite common around the time? Was it a close-knit community where people met their future husbands and wives, you know, when they were still children, or was that still, was unusual at that time? [00:01:44]

CC. Well, I can't speak for other people, but it certainly was unique for two brothers like Fred and I to have two grandfathers with two very famous businesses trade opposite each other. One being F. Cooke and Sons, the pie and eel shop which is known throughout the world. And opposite was one of the finest fish, wet fish shops in London.


Q. And what was the name of the fish shop, sorry? [00:02:18]

CC. It was John Hitchcock

FC. Brother of Alfred Hitchcock.


Q. Really? So you're related to Alfred Hitchcock then? [00:02:24]

FC. No, our grandfather worked for him, so we're not actually relatives. [laughs]

Q. Okay. What sort of people were your mom and dad? What sort of people were … [00:02:35]

FC. Very down to earth, hard working characters. Probably worked much harder than they should have done. Served a lot of time because, in a way, our grandparents who held the reins … in a way our parents were committed to work virtually six days a week. They didn't start, and in those days it wasn't so easy for the staff either. I mean, staff work five and a half days a week. They had half a day but our parents didn't even get half a day. But very hardworking people but very well known in the area and very popular with the locals. You know customers were virtually on first name terms with them as they came in.

CC. But I would add I would think it was almost based on like a semi-Victorian regime.

Interviewer. Right. So bringing …

FC. Our grandparents were very very good hardworking type people but they were Victorian tartars and mum, our mother and father did suffer a little bit under the cosh, you know as much as they were employees not family, and it was a hard way of life for them.


Q. So did they pass that on to you in terms of bringing you up as well? [00:03:48]

FC. Yes it did. It passed on to us very much so. But as time went on, things softened and when we came into the business, I think our parents were still working a six day week, but we had a five and a half day week.

CC. But they made the five and a half day week, forty-eight hours a day. [All laugh]


Q. Okay, so. Did you live above the shop when you were children? [00:04:16]

CC. Yes, we used to live above the shop and we've got very fond memories of living there. You see, with all of ours, our parents used to work. It wouldn't have been convenient to live, had a private house out of town. So, they lived above the shop and well, you could say he was, he was the ‘on tap’ twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. But very fond memories.

FC. Yeah, we both went to local schools. We didn't have high class educations. We were very sort of basic, but it taught you the street wise moves and we became very aware of the situation and we were able to move in when our parents, well first of all when our grandparents passed on and then also we were able to take over when our parents moved on and took a less active. Our father always maintained and insisted that we never say he retired. He always liked us to say he took a less active part in the business.


Q. Sure. Okay. Well, I mean, I'll be moving on to that. Well … just a couple of other questions about you as children. How often did you actually come down into the shop as children? Were you always here or? [00:05:20]

FC. Every day.

CC. Well, I mean to say, how often did we come down? I mean, so you'd come home from school in the evening and you'd be instantly commandeered to roll up your sleeves and stand at the sink and start doing some washing up or clear the tables or, you know, there was various jobs and mundane chores. I think it's very essential that when you're involved in a business you can't start at the stop - top. You've got to start at the bottom where the foundations are because how are you going to be able to teach anybody else what to do if you can't do it yourself.

Interviewer. Sure. So that was, that's kind of your parents philosophy.

FC. I think we must have been the best two table cleaners and setter-uppers in Dalston.

CC. The tips were no good though [all laughs].

FC. But it was the thing. You were invited to take part in the business and you were taught at a very early age money doesn't grow on trees and you were invited to take part so you knew where the money was coming from.


Q. Sure. And why … how young were you when that happened? When that was started, as soon as you [cross talk] [00:06:35]

FC. Well, I think if the Department of Employment heard and knew what age we were, they'd hang, draw, and quarter us. I can remember clearing the tables in the shop and in those days they were great big long thick solid top marble tables and I think at the time I could just about see over the top to wipe the marble but it didn't do me any harm. It taught you and done you in good stead and taught you the groundwork for the biz, that enabled us to carry on through.

CC. And I can remember in the late 40s, early 50s, we were so busy, one of the jobs which I used to do on Saturday afternoon was just fill the vinegar bottles up, which would be replaced on the tables for our customers to have on their pies and eels and whatever. And I could barely see above the bottle.

Interviewer. So pretty young basically. Okay. Um, do you mind if we stop one second? Yeah. [Break]


Q. Okay, so. We’ve talked about your childhoods, but before we kind of move on a bit to sort of your early adulthood and so on and I just wanted to ask a few questions about the trade in general. Can you tell me what you know about the origins of the eel, pie and mash trade? [00:07:36]

FC. Well, I'll take the bull by the horns here. It has been said that it was our grandfather that started the pie and eel trade. No, let's go back a bit further. Our great-grandfather. In Sclater Street in the East End. And we have always been educated that it was our grandfather who carried on and in actual fact started fast food in the Victorian times because our grandparents were doing fast food before any of the fast food people that you've got now even sensed or sniffed or were even a flicker of light on the horizon.

CC. When hamburger was the most common name in Germany.

FC. You know, our grandparents, it has been said and we've always been educated to the fact that it was our grandparents that actually started fast food. And, you know, from the different premises that they've moved - from Sclater Street to Broadway Market to here. We, they were Victorian fast food. In a big way.


Q. So where did … Why was it eels and why was it pies and why did you have mashed potato with that? I mean, does anyone know or where it was …? [00:09:09]

FC. No. I've often … No, I've often thought why the combination ever started off. I can only suggest that eels were in an abundance and easily obtained. A staple diet. Pies, which were also a staple diet with meat served with a sauce, parsley sauce. What could be nicer? Served with mashed potatoes and all of a sudden you've got a beautiful combination. You've got a minced steak and kidney pie with beautiful fresh, cooked, stewed eels, a portion of mashed potatoes with parsley sauce. My mouth starts to water now over it. And that's how I think the combination came about because of the abundance and the supply of the raw materials. And they came together and they probably came together at a time when people didn't have a lot of money, probably pretty poverty-stricken, but they were able to put together a really first class substantial meal and in those days very inexpensive. Not unfortunately like today when eels are very expensive, beef is expensive. In those days, it was a cheap and a very easy meal to put together. Very nutritious and very, you know, a good belly filler.


Q. Okay. All right. Well, either of you, eels, pie and mash have kind of always gone together traditionally, and that's certainly something that's gone back within your family a long way. But if you go look around London pie and mash shops today, hardly any of them serve eels anymore. Why do you think that is? [00:10:54]

FC. Price.

CC. Well the price. It price out in the market, you see, and we say eels become … well at one time someone said, our grandfather said that one day eels will be dearer than oysters. And when you think of the price of eels now and the return you get for them well it's no wonder. Plus also you've got a generation, a generation have moved away from stewed eels and jellied eels. I mean so I know there are delicacies in other restaurants where they cater for a market but at one time stewed eels and jellied eels was mega business. I mean so there were tons and tons and I don't exaggerate by that, tons and tons of eels was coming into Billingsgate each day of the week. They were coming from every country in Europe. They were fishing them out. They were - an expression - eels were coming out the woodwork. But I to mean say it's been overfished. Europe has been overfished. So that's why now they've had to resort to eel farming where they can now culture eels. It's a very expensive process and with the lack of the, can I say the wild eel, the proof of the pudding's been in the eating and that's what's escalated the price.

FC. But eels have declined in popularity. You know, go back to 1914, 1918, during the war, people couldn't get anything else to eat. Very few other things to eat. But eels managed to be able … they managed to get hold of eels and eels were a sought after commodity. Then take the second world war. They were hard to get hold of, and because they were hard to get hold of, people lost the habit of eating eels. And I think after the war, because of the cost, there was a decline in the demand for eels. But you've got, it's an evolution. Things come along that weren't there before. You've got other fast foods that came along which were more palatable possibly to the generations coming along and eels lost their favor. And I think you'll find that's why a lot of the shops that used to be pie and eel restaurants don't sell eels. You know, the young generation now will jump up and down, pull their hair out ‘cause they want a McDonald's.

CC. I think this is significant by the amount of pie and eel shops now that are in London.

FC. But they don't, they won't do that for a portion of eels. In actual fact when modern generations hear or see or hear eels spoken about, I don't like to be unkind but they make funny noises and pull their noses up in the air and look upon them with disgust.

CC. So to a degree I feel that we've lost a bit of our culture because if you go and you look at sort of Holland, right, and Germany, and Italy where they consume so many eels, smoked teal is a delicacy there and let's face it, Japan I think is the largest eating nation in the world but somehow or other England has just … the demand has diminished.

FC. Yeah, there are other things that have come along that have superseded the eel eating culture of people. There are still a lot of people that eat eels, but nowhere near the amount that they ever used to.


Q. Okay. Well, if we just take a step back then to a time when people were still eating eels. We’ve been talking about the history of the trade. Could you tell me a little bit about the history of the Cooke ‘empire’ for want of a better word? I mean it's … I know it's not … Well, if you walk around London looking for pie and mash shops, loads of them have got the name ‘Cooke’ above the door. Could you just sort of tell me how that came about? [00:14:55]

CC. Yes. Yeah, I can tell you briefly. Because there were various members of the family that had offsprings and they were trained like we were in the way of life and in the way of running an eel shop and a lot of the shops that are going now with the same name Cooke are run by siblings of the family.

Interviewer. Okay, so. I mean, what was … right at the start you have your grandfather setting up a business.

CC. That was Fred Cooke and his father was the former founder, which was Robert Cooke. Which was our great-grandfather.


Q. [cross talk] Yeah. Sorry. Right. Okay, so where did Robert Cooke set up his business? [00:16:12]

CC. Well to the best of our knowledge I believe the earliest shops were in Sclater Street. Right, but the, um, I believe our great-grandfather also owned a shop in Tower Bridge Road which is now owned by a family called the Manzes’ who married into our family and it said that our great-grandfather sold that to one of the Manze family.

FC. So very old. I think they were good sort of sparring partners so to speak. Mike Manze. And I think it was our father that helped to get Mike Manzy going which generated the Manze shops that there are going now from their offsprings.


Q. Okay. So, and so what happens is the parents of the, or people who own the shop, they try to pass it on to their children. [CC. Yes] If they've got more than, you know, if they've got a lot of children then do they … what generally happens … ?[00:17:06]

CC. I think what happens is, if you've been, if like Fred and I we've been brought up in a business where we've lived above the business and we've got a wonderful education from our grandfather and our dad, I think it sort of bred into you so eventually there will come a time when you've got to go out and earn your own living. Or you'd already served your apprenticeship, so you'd be more or less offered the tools. The tools are there if you want to come and join us and help. Well, the opportunity is there for you. Can I say that possibly some people have been given that opportunity and chose to go in different directions. But Fred and I, and some of our other relatives, we chose to go down a road to be entrepreneurs in the pie and eel trade.

Interviewer. Very successful. You've been out there too obviously.

FC. Yeah, I don't think we made a bad job of it [laughs]. I mean, I think you'll find if you check the sporting fixtures, my brother and I ran the business between each other for something like over 40 years. So, I don't think that's a bad track record at all.

Interviewer. It’s not bad at all. And it's a … you're pretty well known as well, you know, not just within pie eating circles.

FC. No, I've got a pal that reckons I'm on a television more times than Terry Wogan.

CC. And I think if I had to be modest, I could say that we took over one of the finest pie mash shops in the world and we turned it into the finest business of its type in the world.

FC. People would ring up from all over the world. And I finished up, I used to answer the phone: “Cookes, most famous pie shop in the world. Can I help you?” and whoever it was on the other end, if they were strangers, they'd laugh and they'd say, "Could you say that again?"


Q. Okay, Chris, you talked a minute ago about, you mentioned your other relatives in the other shops throughout London. Could you just tell me how you're related to some of the more famous shop - to the owners or proprietors of some of the more famous shops? [00:19:17]

CC. Well, our grandfather was Frederick Cooke. He had a brother, Robert Cooke. Now, our grandfather had two sons, Robert Cooke, and Frederick Cook, who was our father. They in turn both had two grandsons. Hence, Fred and I, son of Fred, and we've got two cousins, Bobby and Joe, son of Bob (Robert Cooke II). They run businesses in Hackney and there is another shop which would be at Waterloo, which would be run by our grandfather's brother's relatives. I won't go too deep into that, it's a bit complicated. But they really and truly are the only three shops that have got Cooke blood.


Q. Okay. So, what about if you went right back? I mean, because a lot of the shops have got, you know, ‘Manze’. I mean that you were saying earlier that you thought that even they were kind of related by marriage or whatever. So… [00:20:32]

CC. It's a long, very tall family history and it is said that the Cooks are related to the Manzes somewhere down the line.

FC. Well, it's a fact of life they are.

CC. Yeah.

FC. But, um, well I don't know if all the Manze shops are run by Manzes. You know, they've kept the name over the fascia but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are family.

CC. I think the main strain from the Manze family, they've got businesses in South London. Uh they've got one shop in Town Bridge Road, another one at Peckham and there's another one which they've opened fairly recently at Sutton. So that is the Manze side of the family. But I mean, you know, things are dwindling and ever increasing overheads, people not having the will to go into, follow up their ancestors sort of trials. It's becoming a very sad state where I think eventually there won't be any pie and eel shops.

Interviewer. [00:21:56] Or there'll be themed pie and eel shops like Irish bars … [cross talk]

FC. Well you get that now, Alex. But the thing is, pie and mash and eels, but they also sell ham and spam and chips, egg and chips, chips and ham and spam and chips, and eggs and tomato. Chips and chips, and beans and tomato and ham.

CC. Alex, when you think about it, we must … We, and I mean not being bigheaded or blasé by that, but we in our family must have been very very good at what we did in the environment in which we lived because we are extremely vulnerable running a two line business: eels and pies. I do not know of any other business in the world that could survive on two lines.

FC. Main attractions. I mean, if you look, if you go into a fish and chip shop now and you look up their menu, it starts up the top with skate- cod and chips, skate and chips, and as you gradually go down, it's chicken and chips, sausage and chips,

CC. Pasty and chips.

FC. Kebab and chips

CC. chips and chips

FC. Pasty and chips. You know, they've had to go into so many different lines, when you think we maintained ourself right the way through on two lines: eels and steak and kidney pie.

CC. Along with parsley sauce and mashed potatoes.

FC. Now that's a very delicate fine line.

CC. And I can hear our father saying to … I can hear our father saying, over 35, 40 years ago, that once you start selling other things, other items in your shop, apart from pies, eels and mash, it is no longer a pie and eel shop.

FC. It's the end. It's the end of a pie shop. You start selling ice creams, it shows that you can't make it on what you're known for and you've got to divert to something else. We weren't prepared to do that. No, we kept going as long as we felt we could and we did well.
We'd probably still be here now, but there's been a change in the type of people in the area. So, we moved with the times and it was time to move.


Q. All right. I want to just take it back now to your kind of growing up and you left school, you're young, you're both young men. What was your role? What happened there? I assume you both went - you came straight into the business full time. In terms of working … [00:24:17]

FC. Really and truly you were always expected to come into the biz and that's exactly what we did.


Q. What would your role be in the shop when you were, you know, still that sort of age? [00:24:44]

FC. Crikey. When I first came in, I think I was put on the stall to serve live eels, right? I'd already made millions of pies as a young lad, but there was an opening there for the live eel side, and it taught me how to clean and gut eels and cut them up properly, how they should be done, and it was an insight into that side of the business. And you gradually filled in and you were expected to take your part where you were most wanted. Wherever there was an opening and wherever there was a sort of a weak link for staff and you were expected to take it up. You had to get stuck in.


Q. How about you Chris? Was there anything that you … [00:25:26]

CC. I came straight in as general manager. [All laugh]. No, no. I think what happened was, you've done, you'd had such a good foundation of learning how to fetch and carry and how to be a general dog's body, there was not a crook or cranny where you couldn't fit into and perform your role. I mean so, we were brought up under a very very strict regime and you didn't have to be told what you were going to do. You knew what you were going to do before they even thought about telling you because it was in your blood.


Q. Okay. Well, I was going to ask you about areas that you needed to learn at this stage. You clearly didn't need to learn anything. So tell me about some of the things that were involved like … [cross talk]. [00:26:10]

FC. There wasn't much anybody could tell us about the biz. You know, we could take staff on and there wasn't much that we didn't know that you couldn't tell somebody because you'd already done it yourself. So, you knew exactly how to tell somebody else how to do it.

CC. That's why we were here so long.


Q. Okay. Well, tell me about some of the things that you would, that you had already learned. I mean like how, things like, I don't know, making the liquor or just handling eels. What's involved in some of the daily tasks that you'd be involved with? [00:26:35]

CC. Where do you want to start? I mean to say the bell would go at sort of 4:30 when you get up and you go to market and I'm talking about now from the late 60s, 70s. We, Fred and I, would go to market and we come back. I mean to say no matter what had to be done. If there was potatoes had to be prepared, you’d be there as pastry that had to be dealt with. you never had ‘a’ job. The job you had was to be here to be able to do everything that had to be done, right from the time from opening the front door for the staff to come in. But I mean, so there's a lot of work that was done before the staff arrived and a heck of a lot of work was done after they went. But, you name it that Fred and I had to do it. I mean so, there would be deliveries coming in early in the morning and people, the drivers would be astounded that we were the proprietors because we get stuck in and help them. We would be preparing eels, we would be chopping meat, we would be washing parsley, we would be cutting, chopping up suet. We used to have a ton of suet with the kidney knobs and that would have to be prepared for the pastry. I mean, I have known times and God's my witness, Fred and I have worked 24 hours right around the clock, and then started work the next day. We didn't go to bed. But I tell you what, by the time the following evening came, I think I was retired then.

Interviewer. Thats fair enough.

FC. [00:28:26] Yeah, you could say really and truly, our main object and our main task was we employed staff. We didn't do it all ourself. Our main object was to make sure that the staff were doing the job as it should be done. If we were short of staff and the staff weren't there, then there’s a slot for us, we slipped in and we carried on where the staff weren't. So we could, you know, we could fall into any of the jobs and categories or whatever you want to name or do. We could do everything in the biz and you could, we could tell the staff because we'd done it all ourself. But really and truly our main object was to engage good quality staff, keep our eye on staff, and make sure the job was being done properly. And I think I could really honestly say that there wasn't a moment in time that there wasn't either one of us on scene, and I think that's the secret of our success. We didn't engage managers. We did it ourself. We run the shebang ourself. And you would very seldom come here unless there would be one of us on duty, keeping an eye on the staff, keeping an eye on things and making sure that everything that went into the shop was exactly as it should be. And I think really and truly that is the secret of our success, making sure that everything was right.

Interviewer. Okay. So well that's your philosophy on … that was obviously your philosophy from the time you managing.

FC. Absolutely. Yeah.


Q. I mean before you, did that echo your father's … [00:29:51]

FC. Yes. Very much so. Yeah. Because we were drilled by our parents, by our dad and our grandfather, that you know you've got to keep your eye on things. You know, you don't go after the races and leave the staff to sort it out. That's a one-way decline. So, we were very, we were very considerate and very honest in our thoughts and we looked after the business to the best of our ability and I think you know, repeating, that is the secret of our success: that we were keeping our eye on things. It wasn't left to other people to run.

CC. To use a slogan: Often imitated, never equaled.


Q. Okay. I mean, when you were still, you know, young men and father was still the head of the business as it were. I mean, was it your ambition to take over or were you looking to open up new shops or things? How did you see things? [00:30:42]

CC. No, not really because it was such a fast buzzing outfit that we were sort of picked up on the merry-go-round of it. But unfortunately in 1950, 51, our father had heart problems and I think that really sort of kicked my brother and I into touch - that we were going to have to go down that road. So being very conscious and we were very, our father was our be all and end all, we loved it, that we would always try to do everything to help him and throw as little stress on him as necessary. So, I think we were automatically funneled into the line. We didn't have to be ambitious because we'd got the jewel in the crown to work with.


Q. Okay. So, just talking a little bit about things outside of the shop. You were living and working right in central Dalston as young men. What was it like to be here at the time, early-50s or mid-50s? [00:31:49]

FC. Brilliant. Brilliant. Two young guys working a fantastic business, you know, doing very well. What more could you ask for? Yeah, we didn't have a lot of time to ourselves, but it was worth our while to do what we were doing. And we both got stuck in and thoroughly enjoyed it. We were on a high.


Q. What do you remember about the area itself? [00:32:30]

CC. Oh, brilliant. Lots of cinemas. The area was buzzing people. I mean, saying the postwar days, people were working hard. There was lots and lots of thriving businesses. It was wonderful. And of the nighttime, we'd be up in our living quarters above the shop. And so at 10, 10:15, you would think there was half the British army walking past the front of the shop, but it wasn't. It was a cinema turn there, It's people walking down the high street!

FC. Yeah. You could hear a movement of feet

CC. A wonderful community. A wonderful sense of community and a lot of very very dear people.

FC. Had five cinemas in the area.


Q. Five? [00:33:17]

FC. Yeah. Five. One, two, three. One, two, three, four, five. Yeah. Five. At least five. Yeah. Could be six. Might be six if you go right a little bit further on. And when they turned out, you could hear there's a movement of people. You hear them marching.


Q. And this community you're talking about, they all lived and worked in the area, did they? Or… [00:33:34]

FC. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Local. Yeah.

CC. There was a lot of factory workers in the area and then we say come sort of 12:30, 13:00 and we say our shop would be like a beehive with people trying to get served with their lunch because they've only got a limited time. I think used to get half an hour then and they've got to get back to work. So I mean so, it was really, I mean say, I think the expression ‘like a madhouse’ with trying to provide these people with their lunches so they could get back

FC. And it was a bit of a meeting place as well. People only had a limited amount of time if they didn't go to the canteen for their food, right? They chose to come here. They'd make a rendezvous with other people and they'd have a half an hour's sort of rendezvous having a chat, chitchat, whatever, have their meal and bof. Off they go back to work again.

Interviewer. So it would be completely full. Be you know …

FC. Lunch time? Yeah. Walking on their heads.

CC. Yeah. And the same as well in the evening time. I say people used to live in the area and they used to come from far and wide and we say used to be absolutely packed and buzzing. People, you know, would come for 40, 50 miles in the evening just to have pies and eels and they became regular faces that you knew and you knew where they lived. And so that's a compliment to you really. I mean so to think people have come all that distance just to savor our wares, on our two little restaurants with two lines.

FC. When do you think, yeah. It wasn't, you know, you can go and get fish and chips anywhere. Not being unkind. You get a bit of Chinese relatively anywhere. But you couldn't go anywhere and get what we were selling. And a lot of the shops weren't open on an evening like we were. We were open right the way through. I mean, I think our latest times were half past 11 and people would come after they've had a, you know, they've been for a few drinks in the pub. They really wanted a few eels and a pie and mash and there wasn't anywhere else to come to but us.

CC. Yeah. Our times are half 11 and our shop would still be full up at quarter past 12.


Q. So they don't go through the door after the closing? [00:35:40]

CC. Oh dear, oh dear. [inaudible][00:35:34]. I mean say, a lot of the public houses now they all sell food and it's a different world. I mean say, they're not pubs, now they're restaurants, right. But I mean there was one time you know that the licensing hours at the pubs, they come from the pubs they had their six or eight pints of whatever they were drinking and we used to get them and we say sometimes we're good and sometimes we're not so good. We used to have to deal with other people's trouble sometimes, but I think we cope with it pretty well.


Q. Okay. Just while we're on the subject of the area, could you tell me a bit about Ridley Road at the time as well? So, it's right across from the doors. So, did you know the traders and things or … [00:36:17]

FC. Yeah, traders used to, we got people that used to come in three times a day. Traders used to come in for their breakfast, come in for a few eels for their breakfast. After they've been down the market, Spitafields, loaded their stall up, then they come across and they have a few eels, mash and liquor for their breakfast. They'd probably come in for a pie and a few eels [at] lunchtime. Then when they'd finished doing their biz, five o’ clock, half past, they'd all pack up and go home. And they’d probably have a few beers on a Friday evening and then you'd see them again half past 8, 9, 10 o’ clock in the evening again. You know, some people come in three times a day.

CC. To the best of my knowledge, Ridley Road was set up to provide employment for the servicemen that came back from the 14-18 war [WWI] . So, you know, that relates a little bit to our period here as well. The facts I'm telling you now are passed on by our grandparents.

Interviewer. That fits in with that, [inaudible][00:37:26] but certainly the time. Yeah.

CC. And I mean say, Fred and I, we've grown up here, right? And we've grown up here in 41 Kingsland High Street and we have possibly known three, two or three generations of costermongers from the market. I mean say we knew the boys in the market. We knew their parents and their grandparents. But what a way of life, a wonderful part of our heritage.

Interviewer. Okay.

FC. But in the 50s after the Second World War, in the mid 50s to the late 50s, things were really humming in the area. You got guys who’d been out fighting for King and country and they were so pleased to be able to come back. They're able to come back to the country, get their demob suit off, buy themselves a decent Saturday rig out. and on a Friday and Saturday night, they were out having a few beers, enjoying life that they'd fought for, and it was a really humming time in the area. Pubs used to have to shut. I think in those days, I think pubs were 10 or 10:30. They didn't serve food. It was just drinks and whatever. And after they'd had a few drinks and they were hungry, they would come and see us, give us a visit, and we would absolutely be thronged out. They would be standing, standing room only, and they're only too happy to even stand and eat. To think they've been out in the war, they're lucky to get back, they're getting going again, dockers or wherever, come from the East End, and they were so pleased and started to live life again. It was a really humming, buzzing time.

CC. And you know, I can remember, I can remember public houses in the area where you didn't have karaoke and disco music, but all you'd hear is a crashing-bashing of a piano and people singing the old songs, right? I'm going back, I can remember there was one old chap used to come in the shop and he used to stop outside and he'd leave his barrel organ outside and he come in the shop and have his pie and mash and whatever and then he put his cap on and he go outside and get between the shafts of his barrel organ and pull it up the road to go and play some music somewhere else. That's how people work their livings then.

FC. [00:39:53] Yeah. And it wasn't unusual on a Saturday to see a a group of guys, call them a band, coming along and they were ex British soldiers, sailors, airmen, playing their instruments, a trumpet, bugle, a drum, an accordion, whatever they could play to earn a shekele or two. And always, it was our mother, she loved the tune ‘a bunch of coconuts’. And soon as they came on this side of the road and they got alongside and they were just getting to us, you could hear them stop playing the tune they were playing and all of a sudden ‘I've got a lovely bunch of coconut’ to strike up right and mom would run out with a 10, a two shilling piece or whatever whatever in those days and give the boys a drink and they as they went past us it's got to be ‘I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts’. And I can see these characters now you know one limb, one leg, stump, or whatever trying to get a few bob. You don't see it now but that did used to happen along the highstreet. You get these characters coming along trying to earn a bob, whatever they could, playing an instrument.

Interviewer. That sounds quite different from how it is now.

FC. Exactly. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But I can see these characters, they go along that side of the road and they'd have their little signs on, blind or whatever, and then all of a sudden they change over and they come along this side of the road and when they got to us I got ‘a lovely bunch of coconuts’.


Q. Okay. I mean you said before you kind of work basically a six day week and obviously extremely long hours on each of those days. Probably you were working the other day as well. But what were your, if any, what were your main interests and activities outside the shop and where did you socialise? Did you go to [inaudible][00:41:47] or was it just a question like quickly? [00:41:25]

CC. Well, I think really and truly we were pretty much, if you use the expression, ‘under cosh’ until after our father had had major heart surgery because although he was a good dad, he couldn't spend as much time with us as he would like to have done. But when our father had his mitral valve replacement, he was very good to us and he provided us with the funds to be able to do mostly whatever we wanted.

FC. Yeah, we were let out from under the shell


Q. So did you stay in the area? [00:42:22]

CC. Oh, no, we still stayed in the area, but we were involved in everything. Water skiing and you know it was like, and our father enjoyed -

FC. Yea but we maintained our roots still here.

CC. Oh yeah

FC. Yeah, we went off and done other things but we were always back here again, you know, well in time Sunday evening, Monday morning to you know kickstart the whole biz again. [Cross talk]

CC. This was the, you could say really and truly, this was the most important thing in our life.

Interviewer. Okay. One of you. I can't remember which one it was, was talking about how your grandfather met his wife across the road.

FC. [Cross talk] No. That was our father, our father, yeah.


Q. How did you both know your wives? Is it … [to Fred Cooke] in fact, I know how you met yours. [00:43:03]

FC. Alright well I won't tell you then [laughs].

Interviewer. Tell me anyway [laughs].

CC. Well, I was married once before and I met my second wife in Barbados.


Q. Okay. Can you tell me about yours Fred. [00:43:22]

FC. Yeah, my wife, it was a thing for the local lads to go off going dancing, couple of times a week. You know, you try and pull yourself a bird and I pulled myself a bird, I had a result and I've never looked back since. You know, it's one of the best things I ever done. I started to take my wife out. We courted for a very long time. Dad went through ill health, which we had to just sit back and watch go through. Hopefully getting through to the other side, which we did. And my wife came into the business in the meantime. And we got married and we lived on the business. Put a lovely flat out the back. So, we weren't far away from our job. And my wife came into the business and worked in the shop, more or less took over from where my grandmother had been, and my mother, she suffered ill health and she wasn't able to carry on. So it's a brilliant opportunity for my wife to be introduced to the business to come in. And we have always been educated to the fact that to run a business like this, the way it is, is a two-sided team. One of you needs to be outside keeping an eye on the staff and seeing that the product comes up as it should do like we've said, and it's the job of the other half of the team to be in the shop to see that the shop side of it, the restaurant side, is run properly the money goes in the till and things are run at that end appropriately. So it's all, we've always been educated that it's got to be a husband-wife team relationship, which it was in our grandparents' time, was in our parents' time and we carried it through.

CC. When we closed the business, our two wives were beside us to pull the curtains down.

FC. You know what more can you say?

Interviewer. Yeah. No exactly.

FC. You know what more can you say? You know it was a family run business, team job. You know, the wife wasn't sitting upstairs sort of doing the knitting, wife was expected to do her half of the share of the business and you know I don't know where business are today that carry on like that, I don't know if they carry on like that, but it's how we did it and it paid off.

Interviewer. Now that, I mean that's, I don't normally ask that question but I know that's why I asked it because I know that there was …

FC. Yea, were you happy with the response here

Interviewer. Absolutely great.

FC. Alright, good, yeah.

Interviewer. sorry no I wasn't mean [glitch sounds][00:45:47] that's why I'm …

Fc. Well, you already knew half.

Interviewer. I didn't actually [cross talk]. I'll tell you afterwards what I thought about it.

FC. Alright. No, no, but you know, it's always been a thing in the biz for the wives to do their part.


Q. Yeah. Okay. Moving on to the points at which you talked about, you’d taken over the reins from your father because of his heart sort of trouble. What were, at that stage, what would you say, I mean, it was obviously a successful business because it was very busy. How would you say you've looked to change it? I mean obviously you haven't changed anything fundamentally but you looked into diversify and expanding since. [00:46:12]

FC. Yeah. Very very small diversions. What were the progress of time of people liking a drink with their meal. People were coming in and we didn't sell drinks at all. Not at all. The only change that I can remember we ever made was that people liked to have a drink with their meal and they were bringing a ring pull can in, having a Coca-Cola or an orange and we thought ‘well we may as well sell them a drink’ so we started sell cold drinks. There was also then a request ‘have you got hot drinks?’ So we introduced teas, coffees, chocolate as a hot drink. Really and truly, they are the main and only changes that I can recognize that we introduced into the biz other than what had been going on since 1910 when it first started. And that was purely because of the request by general public.

CC. We were getting Schweppes, Coca-Cola fighting to get in. Fighting, [they] used to send their hard men round to try and get in. But our attitude was we didn't need someone sitting at the table sucking on a straw with a Coca-Cola while you had two or three people walking around with a big bowl of steaming stewed eels and mash and nowhere to sit. So what do you do? But then our attitude changed because we weren't prepared for our customers to consume a fizzy drink sitting at our tables that they bought and brought in with them.

FC. So that's … going to have a drink? Buy it off us. Makes sense.

CC. Yeah. And also we didn't like the idea of, in those days Coca-Cola was in bottles before you had draft drinks. But then when this guy eventually came round and I started to wane, we started to wane a little bit, was when he … we were influenced by having canisters of Coca-Cola and you didn't have to have someone checking all the empty bottles and boxes, right? Just canisters of Coca-Cola.

FC. On draft.

CC. Press a button. Bingo. Done.

Interviewer. Okay.

FC. That's enough Coca-Cola. We're not plugging them friends. [All laugh]


Q. I won't ask anymore about them. You obviously, over the … because it's a business that you've kept, you know, you built on a really, a sort of, a regular clientele, a hardcore of regular sort of customers. You must have some sort of first ones [laughs] you must have some sort of customers who maybe you saw every day, you know, for 20 or 30 years. Are there any individuals that kind of stand out that were your favorite regulars? [00:49:20]

FC. Alfie Bass was a very frequent customer. He always come in the back, park his car, “Hello boys” come up. He'd have food in the shop, perhaps stuff to take away. Then you had Chaz and Dave. They were a couple of celebrities that parked their vehicle or whatever they were in, in the backyard, come through, we're on first name terms with them and they come through and all of a sudden people in the shop would spot them and ask for their autographs and they were very accommodating. Yeah, they’d write their autographs and they'd sit down, they’d have a great big plate full of eels and mash and pie and mash and whatever and take great big tubs and bags full of gear home.

CC. I can remember Arthur Mullard was a good customer too. He used to like to come in. Very unassuming chap bit of a big monster character and he'd sit there and he'd eat his pies and mash and, um, no he did … Fond memories and I mean so Barbara Windsor she used to be one of our customers, she’s a nice person Barbara Windsor, used to have quite a big order for a public house out in Amersham where she come along with her poodle. There quite a few you know can you say ‘names’ of people used to come in.


Q. Any particular people who, you know, not famous people just people who lived in the area? [00:51:12]

FC. People lived in the area and what a compliment when they go out, they'd go up to the counter and if I was standing there with my wife or whatever they'd come up to you, they didn't have to, they’d paid for what they'd had, they would come up to the counter and say “Oh that was absolutely delicious, beautiful, thank you very much.” What a compliment for people to go out. No reason, no ulterior reason to come up and speak to you. They pay for what they've had. They're all, they've done their bill, they've got no reason to come up other than their pure satisfaction and enjoyment and their way of showing an affection and appreciation for what they've been served. And many times I've stood up where my wife's been serving and people come, there's a queue, people come in, they'll give their order across to the wife or the counter staff, and if you look at their face, you can see, their lips are starting to water, their tongue starting to go to work, and they're watching what's happening, and they're going like that with their lips [smacking lips] because they know what they they've come for. They know what it's going to taste like, and they're so looking forward to it, you know, their mouth is watering. You know, what a lovely story to tell.

Interviewer. And that was quite a regular -

FC. Oh, you know, you stand up the counter and people give their order and their mouth starts watering.

CC. Get a bit blasé to it really.

FC. Yeah. I actually, my wife and I actually went on a phone in with LBC on a Sunday evening and I had to prepare some of our wares purposely because we're not open Sunday. So, it was all prepared properly and we went along, we had a phone in with people ringing in. And we had so many people ringing in when they first asked me if I'd like to go on. I said, "Are you sure? At 12:00 Sunday night?” They said, "Mr. Cooke, you'll be very surprised how many people listen." And at that time, it was LBC, that listen to the phone ins and actually respond to it and come back on the phones to us. I said, "Okay," and we were in. And we had so many people on the screens that by the time we'd done our session, there were still people queuing up that they couldn't take on board to do the interview with us. It was amazing. And I think on the Monday morning when we opened up, the first customer that came in said, "Heard you on the radio last night." How about it? Amazing.


Q. Yeah. Okay. Well, one of the final things I wanted to ask about in this area, about sort of how you developed the business, and how it's sort of kept going, you know, while you've been in charge is: One thing that I mentioned earlier about other pie and mash shops is that for a lot of them they don't - they've given up on the eels. But to you, eels have always been really important. Why is that? [00:53:46]

FC. Well, a real true pie and eel shop has got to sell eels. And we used to term it in a way that ‘a pie and eel shop that hasn't got eels is like a pub that's got no beer’. The two complement each other. Somehow or other down the line, we always made sure we had an adequate supply of eels to suffice because it wouldn't be a pie and eel shop if you didn't have eels.

CC. And I always used to say, agreeing with what Fred’s saying there. We never used to profess to be the cheapest in the trade, but we used to supply very very good food to the public. And to a degree we always had eels. We were never without eels. And the price was soon forgotten, but the quality wasn't. And that was one of our yard sticks. We could always provide the public with what they wanted.


Q. And tell me about how you did that because you, I mean you got this whole sort of area - [00:55:33]

CC. Well, we had an area out in the back there. I mean say, very very labor intensive, but we could carry up to about seven or eight ton of live eels and we used to build up our stocks from the late summer, early autumn through to the back end of the autumn with a considerable amount of live eels which we would depend on using, and that would partly get us through the wintertime. Because you see, the European eel is not caught in the cold weather because they go off to feed once the temperature drops. So we would make sure that we had quite a substantial stock out there, seven or eight ton, but then during that period of sort of when are you talking about December, January, February, March, we would supplement that with eels which we buy in Billingsgate, that will be coming from other continents i.e from America or New Zealand. So, you know, we were never without eels, but once or twice it was a little bit, little bit shaky.


Q. And did you always have live eels? [00:56:40]

CC. Yeah, live eels right the way through. We were never without.

FC. Yeah, no. We were famous for it. And I think really and truly that's where we sort of created our, what can you say, our epitaph - that you could always go to Cookes and get eels, live eels. I mean you go to a fishmonger, they wouldn't have eels. They'll get you some eels ‘Come back next week we’ll get what you want’. But people could come to us any day of the week and there would be eels there. We had people coming from all over the place because they knew they could always have eels cooked in a restaurant or live, which they bought by the pound, and they were cleaned, chopped up in front of their eyes and they take them away and cook them however they liked. And probably it got to the point we were probably the only people in London where you could go and guarantee 1 o’ clock, 2 o’ clock, whatever time of the day, you will get eels there.


Q. So was that where, did you supply another shop? [00:57:40]

FC. Yes. Yeah. We got into a situation where we finished up buying, and being able to buy more eels than we actually needed ourselves and we sort of created a situation where we were selling eels to other people, other restaurants, other members of the family and at times we would sell them on to Billingsgate. We would use Billingsgate as a kind of a pressure valve. When we had more eels than we needed, we sort of opened the valve, release them onto the market, not getting as much out of them as if you were putting them through a restaurant or whatever, but at least you were moving them through and you were making room for more eels to come through. Because the name of the game was you mustn't refuse anything, ‘cause if you did, somebody else would step in and take the place. So, you know, it was a continuous movement.

CC. And I think it's just a point of interest. I think if we were still here trading now, I think we'd be serving Shanghai. Because we used to serve some of the finest Chinese restaurants in town because.


Q. So, it wasn't just pie and mash shops? [00:58:43]

FC. Oh, no, no, no. We did push out a little bit because we had an abundance of suppliers, you know, there's no sense in buying them unless you can sell them. So, you know, yeah, we could buy them and then we had to find others, you know, people to buy them off us.

CC. We had Chinese restaurants up in town that would be coming, buying a couple of hundred pound, two or three times a week.

FC. Yeah. They'd come in, bring their vehicle or whatever in the back and they load up out the back there.


Q. Okay. So, how long could you keep eels out there for? [Cross talk] [00:59:08]

FC. Well, we used to think to turn them around every two months. We like to turn them around every two months. They keep up to two months, but then it was better to let them go if you could.


Q. Right, moving on a little bit to sort of, more to the business side of things in terms of what people see and saw from the front. I mean, who would you say your competitors used to be when you were sort of taking over the reigns and how have they changed, how did the change over the period of - [00:59:27]

CC. Well at one stage, I mean say, you had fish and chip shops and a few cafes and that was that.

FC. Had a few other pie and mash shops

CC. And other pie and mash shops which you respected because you were all in the same sort of trade but then sort of in the 50s you had the advent of the wimpy bar and Chinese restaurants and then with airfares being cheaper and package holidays, people will be able to fly further distances. So they go and they'd eat kebabs and this, that and the other. So hence when they came back to the UK, there was an opening there for people to open up a kebab restaurant or whatever. So in the end there was quite a few people and also you living in an area or a day and age where people, they want different foods.

FC. It was certainly very cosmopolitan and people wanted, when they came home, the type of foods that they had when they were on holiday. So there was a complete change around. You know, fish and chips are okay and your pie and mash shops but they were looking for other things as well.

Interviewer. So that became, whereas people had previously been coming in everyday because they like pie and mash, they may come in slightly less.

FC. Could I just say politely, there was a change of trade.


Q. Okay. So because of that, I mean, that presumably had a sort of a negative effect on the numbers of people who are coming through the door in time? [01:01:08]

FC. Pass


Q. I know you were pretty, I know that, I mean certainly when I first met you, you were pretty innovative in terms of how you marketed this place. If you saw an opening for a bit of press or publicity, you’d take - [01:01:23]

CC. Absolutely, bosh, we were in.


Q. So what did you do? What sort of things did you do to - ‘cause I mean that's partly why this place is so famous because I think you - [01:01:38]

FC. People were queuing up to come in to do an interview.

CC. Do a film shoot.

FC. Do a film shoot.

CC. Fashion show.

FC. Fashion show. [cross talk - God bless. Yes.] I mean, we've had Kate Moss, Naomi Campbell on one fashion shoot, on one Friday afternoon. We’ve had Kate Mossy's brother with a totally female crew, photographers, sound, all the rest. Right. And people, it caused so much intrigue.

CC. This was the ‘in’ place to be interviewed.

FC. One thing led to another. And in - right our dad, bless him. Bless him. One of his best publicity stunts he got involved in, I think, was to go on television, BBC when I think it was only BBC with Richard Dimbleby on the old Panorama programme. And the old man, bless him, went on. They came here. They filmed eels being delivered in boxes. Eels being cut up. Eels being cooked. Eels being sold. Eels being eaten. And the old men done this purely because what a privilege it was to be asked by the BBC to do it. We finished up getting so much of the similar sort of thing with a much more varied type of clientele aspect. We were charging them depending how big they were, depending where it was going to go. We charge facility charge plus VAT.

CC. I mean say, if you go back before that, I mean say Panorama was significant. But before that our pop went up to the old Alexander Palace where he was filmed with the famous one, of the famous foremasters of ‘Can't cook, won't cook,’ Philip Harben. Philip Harben. Some people don't even know the name of Philip Harben, but I'm sure that if you speak to somebody that of our generation, Philip Harben would be the Worrall Thompson of that era. Yeah.

FC. When the BBC were broadcasting in from Alexander Palace.


Q. Okay, and you were going to say something before about sort of this was the place to be interviewed. Is that what you were - [01:04:04]

FC. It became, yeah

CC. Yeah. I mean say, BBC used to be very pro F. Cooke and Sons. I mean they used to bring down pop groups and they'd be interviewed in the shop. I mean say who are, who is, uh, different people like Let Loose and E17, and this was the venue.

FC. Joe Brown.

CC. Joe Brown. This was the venue. This is where they wanted to get in. This was the foothold. It had the architecture and the ambiance to be able to -

FC. [cross talk] Boy George.

CC - portray and get over what they wanted. You know, it was - can I say if anybody could equate it, it was like two smashing pies and mash with steaming hot liquor.


Q. So to the BBC it represented the East End? [01:04:55]

CC. This was the place.

FC. Yeah

Interviewer. That's the way you put it.

CC. I mean say, Andy Peters. Andy Peters - we used to be on first name terms with Andy Peters. “Oh, Andy's coming down next week.” “Oh, is he?” [inaudible][01:05:06].

FC. What about Boy George down? He came down. Boy George, because I used to charge facility as I said to you. Well, I slipped up with Boy George. I came on the phone. BBC or ITV? And they said, "Mr. Cooke?” “yeah, right?” “Um, could we come down and do an interview at your premises at Dalston?" “Uh, when were you thinking?” “Well, this afternoon, Monday afternoon.” “All right.” [David enters] Hello, David.

David. Hi.

CC. Hi, David. How are you?

David. All right. Okay.

FC. So, getting back to the story. Yeah? Okay. “Who are you going to bring down?” “Well, we're going to bring down an artist and he's a presenter and he's a dress designer. I said, "Right." I said, "Any idea how long you're going to take?" They said, "Well, we'll be half an hour, three quarters." I said, "Oh, right. Okay. Well, Monday afternoon, it isn't all that busy. You're going to be in the shop half an hour. How about if we charge you £35 plus the VAT?" So, the character I was talking to is a little bit cute. He said, "Well, can we put it all in, VAT included?" I said, "All right, go on. You're only going to be half an hour, three quarters." Yeah. All right. £35, we get a bit of publicity as well. About half past two or whatever the fuck, the shout goes up. “Got boy George in the shop!” So it's Boy George and I think it's his presenter Paul Apprentice and his dress designer. His rig-out designer. They were here for about an hour and a half, two hours. They completely slaughtered the shop. People were trying to get him. We had to shut the doors. When they finished their business and they'd done, the girl came across to pay me. I wrote her a receipt out. She said, "Mr. Cooke, £35." I said, "Yeah." I said, "Could I just say to you, young lady?" I said, "There's not many people that have taken me for a ride." I said, "But you can put yourself right on the top of the ladder." She said, "Oh, why is that?" I said, "Well, quite honestly, you said you were coming down with an artist, a presenter, and dress designer." I said, "If you'd have actually said to me, it's going to be Boy George and you're going to entertain millions of young people with an interview." I said, "It would’ve been 10 times that. I've never done this. My word is my bond. You got it.” But it will just teach me to be a little bit more curious in the future. But you know, I turned it to my advantage because what I did, I got 35 mil camera with 180 degree fisheye lens, which I got Boy George to stand right in the doorway as his mini cab turned up. And I took his photograph. I had it blown up into a sort of 36 by 18 poster size. Put it up behind the counter and there's Boy George standing in our shop doorway. What would it cost us to get Boy George to stand there and have his photograph taken? It's all right. They dump it for 35 quid, but I think I got a result.

Interviewer. [01:08:07] Okay. One of the things you did to publicize the place, well I don't know if you did it specifically for that reason was that you managed to get listed status of the building.

FC. Well, we didn't. No, that was purely by the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI). That was their decision because places like this were being obliterated. The ruling, regulation, whatever you like to call it, was brought out for listed buildings and they become much more conscious that these listed buildings mustn't be allowed to disappear. So, there was a DTI listed building order put on the property.


Q. Was that good for you or was that a pain in the neck? What did it matter to you? [01:08:46]

FC. We felt it could be a setback if we tried to sell because of the inability to try to change. But at the end of the day, I think we were very satisfied with the transaction that occurred. They got that, what they were paying for and we were satisfied with what they paid for.

CC. We were advised it could be a very positive point as well.

FC. It had its fors and against

Interviewer. Well I think, this is just me personally speaking. But I mean if it hadn't had that here probably you wouldn't have retained as many features. So -

FC. No. [cross talk with CC] So it's very good that it is retained and the you know the ideas and the genuine hard work that went on in previous generations has been retained in a situation like you see it's been passed on to somebody who appreciates it, going to keep it like it.

Interviewer. Okay, few more questions which might, uh, you might not enjoy so much but [laughs] you don't want to ask.

FC. Who said we enjoyed the others? [all laugh]


Q. Okay. I mean, could you just, I know what your reasons were. I think I do anyway. What were your reasons for selling up in the end? What made you come to the conclusion that it was time to go call it a day? [01:09:56]

FC. Quite a conglomerate of reasons really.

CC. Basically, there's no one else to carry on after Fred and I are gone. I've got my stepchildren, most living Barbados. Fred's got a son or daughter. They were doing their business and there was no one else to carry on when we were finished. So, we got to the stage where ‘when is the right time to pack up?’ Do you wait and wait until you're old and decrepit and you can't do it? Or even worse, there's only one method to do it, to wind things up. Or do you say, "Well, let's learn from the experience of our predecessors and let's go now and let's just try and enjoy a little bit of what we've done in the past, for what we've done in the past."

FC. And in our opinion, the way we've been educated and drilled, it isn't the type of business that you can lead to a manager. It needs personal supervision like I've said before. Excuse me. So, you know, as regards carrying on but putting managers in, you're going to kill the goose at laying the gold egg.

Interviewer. Well certainly, I mean, yeah, I think it's certainly better that you went out with it with the reputation intact.

FC. Well, quite honestly, we went out with all guns firing and all flags flying. And I think we went out with a good reputation, a reputation that had been passed on through our grandparents, through our parents. And I think we created a bit of impression ourselves, you know, with our flare and ability to attract all these various different people that came down and wanted to film here, film there, film this, film that.

CC. And although we're not here, somehow or other, I just feel that there's just a little bit of us still here.

FC. So watch it, Andrew. We're watching you. [All laugh]


Q. Just a couple of other questions. What were your feelings after you sold up? I mean, how did you feel about going through it? And I guess it probably wasn't the most enjoyable point in your lives, but anything you'd like to share or you want to move on? [01:12:20]

FC. Yeah, it was all right while it was happening, but when all of a sudden the brakes came on and you realized what had happened, it was a great sacrifice we'd had to make. But it was inevitable. We are not immortal. We're not immortal. There's no one going to come in and take over. The ability to find decent, good quality staff was becoming more and more of a problem. And you can't do it all yourself. So we felt, well, maybe it might be better to call a halt.

CC. Why wait until you've got to do it? Don't you think it's better off to do it when you want to do it and you can do it, regardless of the situation? There could become a time when there was either, God forbid, there was one of us that was unable to function or even worse move to another planet. What? You know, there's so many reasons why you, you know, you pay your money and you take your choice. And there's never a right time or a wrong time to do it. You do it and you put your money where your mouth is and hope you made the right decision.

FC. Yeah. I mean, it was a very, it was an extremely hard decision to make, but it's a situation which is inevitable.


Q. Sure. No, I was meaning more sort of … I mean you made the decision, you're going ahead with it and stuff. Once you've finished and you passed it on, you've basically moved out of the shop. [FF. Mhm.] How did that make you feel? How did you feel at that point? [01:14:03]

FC. I think relieved that we'd found a buyer who was going to respect something that had been our heartfelt indemnity through life and our parents and our grandparents. Somebody that looked like they were going to carry on and hopefully do as good a job in their way as what we had in our way. And I would compliment Andrew and David. Those who just came in for their efforts in what they are doing and achieving in their way the same quality of standard as we try to accomplish and achieved in our way.


Q. Would you agree with that, Chris? [01:15:07]

CC. Well, I don't think I can improve on that. And as far as I'm concerned, I'm sitting here now and the only thing that seems different to me now is the napkins and glasses on the table and some of the acoustics. To me, I closed my eyes and it's exactly as it was.

FC. There's always going to be a bit of us here. You can't … you cannot spend virtually a lifetime in a property, in a business in a way like we have without always feeling ‘some of this is still mine, ours.’ You know we are still here.

CC. That might be what keeps them on their toes. [All laugh]


Q. Okay. Finally, last question. How does a return visit to Dalston and to this shop make you feel? [01:16:00]

CC. Well, Dalston has changed so much over the years. It's a different place to what I grew up in and what I remember. But coming very quickly now to 41 Kingsland High Street, it still retains the ambiance and the charm, character, and the warmth that it ever did.

Interviewer. Yeah. Okay, that's great. Well, thank you very much.

FC. Can you turn your mic off and I'll take -

[01:16:44] END OF INTERVIEW