Oral History Interview - Rabbi Avrohom Pinter
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Audio file
Production date
19/06/2001
Object number
2020.26
Physical Description
Audio recording of an oral history interview with Rabbi Avrohom Pinter. Rabbi Pinter was the principle of the Yesodey Hatorah school, and deeply involved with Hackney's Jewish community.
Total length - 46 minutes, 36 seconds
Total length - 46 minutes, 36 seconds
Description
[00:46:56] Parent’s Jewish background, parents meeting in England, where they lived.
[00:50:48] Jewish community in Stamford Hill.
[00:53:08] Childhood in Stamford Hill. Anti-semitic incidences growing up
[00:58:25] Schooling, studying in Israel, brothers studying at yeshivas, Jewish religion and culture.
[01:02:01] People being from multiple cultures and countries, ‘look at the good even in the negative’, having a stable community.
[01:05:52] Life in Israel, teaching, return to London.
[01:08:01] Yesodey Hatorah school, Orthodox Jewish refugee community in Stamford Hill in the late 1800s / early 1900s, initial unwillingness to assimilate, other jewish schools in the community.
[01:12:08] Differences within the Orthodox Jewish community, interactions and support within the community.
[01:16:07] Founding of the Yesodey Hatorah school in 1942, the Avigdor school and Rabbi Dr. Schonfeld history.
[01:20:06] Prominent students from Yesodey Hatorah, teaching methods and philosophies at Yesodey Hatorah, intertwining religious education with secular subjects and examples of this.
[01:27:58] Working at Yesodey Hatorah when his father was principle, becoming principle and role at the school now, expansion of the school.
[01:30:52] Achievements with the school, involvement in the community
[00:50:48] Jewish community in Stamford Hill.
[00:53:08] Childhood in Stamford Hill. Anti-semitic incidences growing up
[00:58:25] Schooling, studying in Israel, brothers studying at yeshivas, Jewish religion and culture.
[01:02:01] People being from multiple cultures and countries, ‘look at the good even in the negative’, having a stable community.
[01:05:52] Life in Israel, teaching, return to London.
[01:08:01] Yesodey Hatorah school, Orthodox Jewish refugee community in Stamford Hill in the late 1800s / early 1900s, initial unwillingness to assimilate, other jewish schools in the community.
[01:12:08] Differences within the Orthodox Jewish community, interactions and support within the community.
[01:16:07] Founding of the Yesodey Hatorah school in 1942, the Avigdor school and Rabbi Dr. Schonfeld history.
[01:20:06] Prominent students from Yesodey Hatorah, teaching methods and philosophies at Yesodey Hatorah, intertwining religious education with secular subjects and examples of this.
[01:27:58] Working at Yesodey Hatorah when his father was principle, becoming principle and role at the school now, expansion of the school.
[01:30:52] Achievements with the school, involvement in the community
Associated Person
Rabbi Avrohom Pinter (Featured)
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Photo credit - copyright Sarah Ainslie.
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No
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Interview with Rabbi Pinter. Interviewer Alex Sydney - 19th June 2001
Interviewer. [00:46:22] It’s Tuesday the 19th of June, 2001. Okay. Rabbi Pinter, first of all, the purpose of this interview is to talk about the school of which you're headmaster of and and its role within the community. But before we move on to that, I'd just like to sort of try and establish a little bit of background about you and your interests and so on and where you've come from to get to your position, your current position.
Q. So first of all, could you just sort of tell me a little about your parents and your family? [00:46:56]
Rabbi Pinter (RP). Okay. My mother was … she came here when she was 6 years old. She actually came before the Second World War, in 1926. What I understand, my grandparents were thinking of going to the United States and then they decided rather to come to England. My father, he lived in Vienna and in 1938, late 1938, he was told that the Nazis were, um, I'll start off again, okay?
Interviewer. Yeah, sure. Yeah.
RP. My mother came here when she was 6 years old in 1926, when her parents came here from Poland. My father, although he was from Polish extraction, he lived in Vienna. And he was told late in 1938 by a friend of his that - his name was Schmelka - they're coming to get you tonight. Get out. My father, luckily somebody had arranged for him a visa. So he literally, just with the clothes he wore, he got out of Vienna and he came to London. This was in late 1938. And if that wouldn't have happened I probably wouldn't have been here.
Q. Sure. Okay. So, did your parents meet when they were in Britain? I mean, this was when? [00:48:40]
RP. Yes, they got married. My father got married in 1941. Hold on. No, sorry. Sorry. That's wrong. My … 19 … My father got married toward the end of the [Second] World War.
Q. And whereabouts? I mean, how did your parents meet? [00:49:10]
RP. At that time, they both lived with the Jewish, [where] most of the Jewish community lived in that time. Particularly, refugees was in the East End. They both lived in the East End. We get married through introductions and they were introduced to each other and they came from similar backgrounds. Both families were from Rabbinic backgrounds and it was felt it was suitable.
Q. Just sort of to finish off with talking about them, whereabouts did they spend the rest of their lives-? [00:49:44]
RP. Well, my parents came, my father came right away after he got married. He moved into Stanford Hill. He had a house in Bethune Road and then they moved from Bethune Road to Heathland Road, and I was actually born at number 61 Heathland Road, and then they moved for a third time. It was to St. Andrew's Grove. Their life from 1945 till my parents died. My father died seven years ago. They lived in a radius of 500 yards.
Interviewer. Okay. [Stuttering] So they moved, you say immediately after, they moved to, after they married they moved to this area.
RP. That's right.
Q. What would you say was the thing that attracted them most to the area, at that point? [00:50:48]
RP. It seemed what was that the Jewish area, when I'm talking about the strictly Orthodox Jewish area, was starting to establish itself in the Stamford Hill area. Why particularly Stamford Hill, I don't know. There was initially in the late 30s, the strictly orthodox community that lived here were the community from Germany, the German community which was commonly known as the Adass. They still have their synagogue in number 40 Queen Elizabeth’s Walk and now they also have a branch what in Ravensdale Road which is known as the Tottenham Adass. That was the initial community, the forerunner, and they set up what's known as the Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congregations. In fact then, at that time, the majority of the strictly orthodox community were German Jews. That's completely changed. I would say that 75% of Stamford Hill are Hasidic Jews and the German Jews are only a small minority of the strictly Orthodox community now, although they were the ones who initially set up this community.
Q. Okay. I'll certainly come back to that change in makeup later on in the interview. Going back to your childhood then. So you grew up in Stamford Hill. Is that correct? [00:52:28]
RP. I grew up, I was born in Stamford Hill and I was born in Stoke Newington [laughs]. It was then known as Stoke Newington. This was, you know the area where I lived was … although it was commonly called Stamford Hill, there was a Stoke Newington area of Stamford Hill and a Hackney area of Stamford Hill. I was born in the Stoke Newington part of Stamford Hill.
Q. Okay. Because you were living within a fairly close-knit Orthodox Jewish community. I mean, did the people that you know and your friends and so on all come from within that community or did you have friends outside the community? [00:53:08]
RP. Nearly all my friends were within the community. At that time the community outside were much less tolerant than they were now. Although anti-semitism is still going strong, it's nothing to compare to what it was when I was a little boy.
Q. Okay. Right. I mean basically before we finish talking about your childhood, are there any particular things that you remember? Stories or anything about your childhood which sum up the experience that you had? This is a bit of an open question, but is there anything that jumps to mind, springs to mind from your childhood that you'd like to share with the table or - [00:54:01]
RP. With you? I'll tell you [an] experience and you feel if it's useful or not. One of the experiences which I remember, I probably was at that time 11 years old. We have our hairstyle is not … um, let me start off again. [Long pause]. As you've probably noticed, I have sideboards and our hair is cut very short. [Pause]. As you know, I have sideboards and my hair is cut very short. There was one thing I remember that if we ever needed to go to Manor House, we were always scared to pass through to Woodberry Down Estate. There would always be incidents. One day I had to go to Manor House and I said, "Am I going to go the long way round?" And I walked through the Estate and when I -
[Pause for external conversation]
I was walking through the estate and all of a sudden, I can see about six, seven, 14 to 15 year olds approaching me. I also became very frightened. They come along to me and they start laughing. Said, "Take off your hat. We want to see your haircuts." Didn't have any alternative. I took off my hat. They had a good laugh and I started walking on. Carrying on about another 20 yards, another group of 14 to 15 year olds come and start approaching me and said, "Oh, here's a bloody Jew. Let's beat him up." All of a sudden, the previous group said, "You don't touch him. He's our friend.”. They started fighting with each other, and I just walked home glad to get out of that mess. But whenever I think back, I found it was so funny. It is sad but something like that would never happen like that. My children are growing up and although they come home with experiences, it's not those sort of experiences anymore. It's more verbal abuse. I was beaten up on two occasions as a child. I'm not sure if it's something
Interviewer. No, that's very relevant indeed. And I think it's also important that as you're doing that you explain how things have changed, if not totally for the better, certainly moving in the right direction and so on. No, I think that's … I mean this is what fundamentally what this exhibition is about
[Cross talk]
RP. It's a funny story, just purely yobbism because they went, you know, the first group were just making fun of me, but they [laughs]
Q. Sure. [Laughs]. Okay. So, you grew up in this area, and then when you left school … well, basically what sort of things interested you when you first left school? I mean, obviously there was [inaudible][00:58:44], when you felt - [00:58:25]
RP. I actually wasn't a very successful student. And it's funny now many people turn around and tell and say to them “well if Abraham Pinter turned out the way he is, you know you've also got a chance.” I wasn't very, in particularly in school and it was only when I was 17 and I was studying in Israel did I start looking at myself and said where am I going and did I take an interest in studying.
Q. So why did you end up, how did you end up studying in Israel then? [00:59:27]
RP. [Stuttering] It's now fairly routine now, at that time it wasn't. It is because I came from a house of learning and it was expected of me, as I came from a rabbinical family that I should follow that line or to become a Rabbi or to be in education. The best schools at those times were in Israel. It's called the yeshiva and I went there when I was 17.
Q. So did any other of your brothers go there as well or …? [01:00:09]
RP. They all went to yeshivas. My older brother, he also went to Israel but my two younger brothers studied in this country in yeshivas.
Q. Okay. Right. So I mean, while you were doing that, what did you find that you became more interested in your religion and in the culture that went with it or did that change your attitudes to -? [01:00:30]
RP. Well, I think it's the culture, you know, there's no … you can't divide religion and culture. It's all one. I was always … from the moment I can remember, I always felt Jewish and that was my life and I was always interested in Judaism. That's always led me to do whatever I had. You know what my ethics and my morals are all built on my Jewish upbringing. That made me join the Labor Party and that made me join the council that … you know, I've given a lot of my life to the community; to my own community and to the community around me. And it was my Jewish upbringing. It's very difficult to call it “it's a Jewish religious upbringing,” I would say it's a Jewish upbringing. You can't divide the two.
Q. Okay. No, that's very interesting. It's not something necessarily that other people from other cultures would be so definite on, but it's, I mean … it's quite possibly the sort of thing [inaudible][01:02:15]. So, you said a number of things already which are, actually, I can imagine we'll be using. So, okay, moving on. I just also as well as talking about your religion and about your education, I'm just interested as soon … how you … what you would do during your free time, what interested you in your … how your social life develops. [01:02:01]
RP. Well, I can talk possibly a little bit more about my … about my … something about the community. It might be helpful. I remember, one of the things which I remember whilst growing up, how I found when I met people from the wider community, I always felt that life was very boring. Now I was born in England. My mother came from Poland. My father came from Austria. The further I went up, my great-grandparents came from different countries. And I remember I once went on holiday and I met a woman and asked you know where she came from. She says um well I'm from Frinton. That's where you were born. And said “where did your parents come from?” “They came from Clacton.” “Where did your grandparents come from?” “Also from Clacton.” And I felt how boring it was. And now I look, I'm married now. My wife was born in Paris. Her mother was Czech, her father was Romanian. And she moved to, they moved to the United States. And after I got married, I was living in Israel. And, little did I realize that I felt that my richness was coming from being a refugee and coming from one country to another. But one thing I was always brought up to believe, to look at the good even in the negative.
Q. So what do you mean? What do you mean by that? [01:04:41]
RP. Well, being, you know, I just thought that somebody who just came from one culture, was born in England and their parents and their grandparents and I thought it was very boring and I thought how rich I was that I come-
Q. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I understand that. I mean, what do you mean by “look at the good from the negative?” Is that- [01:04:55]
RP. Well this is something that it's looking … you know somebody could say well being thrown from country to country being negative, not being able to establish yourself in any community, you know that surely is not, it's not a positive, you know it's … I feel now that we've been the last … I spent most of my life in Stamford Hill and hopefully I'll spend the rest of my life in Stamford Hill. Its stability. It's where the community is able to set itself up. Um but at that time I didn't see that being thrown from country to country and having to leave each country in a hurry was a negative point.
Q. Sure. That's very interesting. Okay. I mean I think we're gonna keep coming back to this sense of community throughout the interview because I think it's fundamental to what we're talking about. But I mean, moving on through your life, I've put down a question: what was your first job? I mean, possibly it wasn't actually … was it in a religious context? [01:05:52]
RP. When I was in Israel, I subsequently got married and we decided we'll spend the first two years or three years in Israel because I was still studying and we had a completely open mind. I was British, my wife was American. And we say we take it day by day. I was offered a job. It was a part-time job teaching 13 year olds and I really enjoyed it. And my wife, she also started teaching in Israel and she particularly enjoyed because she taught children who came from dysfunctional homes and really felt that she was getting through to these children. And that time we said we let's settle in Israel. But it didn't turn out that way. We weren't able to buy a house. We weren't able to settle down and we decided then to come to London. My father was then the principal of the school. I came in and I assisted him. My wife at that time, she got involved in the girls school and we haven't turned back since then.
Q. Okay. Well, that moves neatly on to where my next question, which was really, it was slightly more general than just for this school. But yeah, could you … given a sort of background to the Jewish community, the Orthodox Jewish community in this area, but could you give a sort of positive history of Orthodox Jewish education and schools in the area? [01:08:01]
RP. I think I need to really give you … because I really haven't given you the … I just give you the … how the Jewish community came here because -
Interviewer: Well, I'll talk about that again later. So, I mean, yeah.
RP. Initially, they were, this is one of the first schools which established itself in the in the area. It was the Yesodey Hatorah school. It started off in 1942 with six children. These was started off when [the] people [who] came over there were refugees and it was very important - what the refugees who arrived here right before the war, what were they different than the other refugees who came in the 1890s or the 1920s when the main part of the Jewish community who came down to the Stamford Hill or to the East End, what one would describe as traditional Jewish community. Those communities made a choice to come to England. It was … when you say a ‘choice,’ it wasn't really a choice. They came to escape pogroms, poverty, but it still was a choice. They came here in a way, they were prepared to assimilate to some degree and tried to fit in to the host community.
[01:10:10] My father, he ended up here. And I'd say 90% of the original strictly Orthodox community in Stamford Hill were in that category. They didn't want to assimilate. They were happy that this country opened their doors to them. They were refugees who never knew what was going … what the next day would bring. It was still during the war the threat of Hitler coming to England was very live then. So the first thing they said to themselves [is] we need to protect our culture. We need to protect identity. So they didn't have any food to take in their mouth. But they establish a school with six pupils.
This school has now over a thousand children. But beside the school, within a mile of here, there's probably 20 other schools, some smaller some bigger, which have now grown out for the Jewish … catering to the strictly Orthodox Jewish community. Each school has something different to in terms of culture. We're the … Yesodey Hatorah is different than to most of the other schools, we cater to the cross-section of the community. Some of the other schools will cater … although they all cater to the whole community but they would specifically cater to one of the different sections of that community.
Q. Okay. So I mean, so are you saying it's a more sort of, it's a broader school in terms of the intake and in terms of the parents it attracts? [01:12:08]
RP. In Stamford Hill you probably have at least 40 sections of the Orthodox Jewish community. The difference is mainly to do with geography. A lot of people, when they see people walking in the street - people in the Orthodox Jewish community - and they see different sorts of modes of dress, different sorts of haircuts, they might get the idea that this particular family is more religious than the other family. That's not so. They're probably just as religious. It is their mode of dress and the way they look is probably more to do from which part of the world they originally came from. And as I said earlier, 75% of the community are Hasidic. Within Hasidic, there's 30 different groups living in Stamford Hill. Then we've got the Sephardi community which is the oriental community. But then there's also different section of those from Africa. You would even have in the same country different traditions. Just to give you an example, the Jews who lived in Morocco, those who lived in the cities and those who lived in the mountains were very different and had a completely different culture. Then you have the German community, you have the Austro-hungarian community, you have the Lithuanian community. Each one with their own traditions, but what's really important, it's what they have in common which keeps them together. We at the Yesodey Hatorah, we have all those groups.
Q. Okay. So I mean just as a sort of follow on question from what you described the differences within the community that you described. But in terms of … you said that the community itself has largely, consciously made a choice not to assimilate with the rest of society in Hackney on a large scale. Have these individual groups chosen to assimilate within the wider Orthodox community or do they … I mean, clearly in their dress sense they retain facets of their origins, but is that- (RP. In the wider or strict Orthodox community?) Yeah within the community. [01:14:20]
RP. Yeah, um, very very much so. There's a lot of interaction within the community. They're supportive of each other. If somebody sets up a business, we will support each other. If a person has difficulties, people from different communities will help those outside their community.
Q. Great. Okay. So it's more a case of within the community those are pulling together looking at the commonality.
RP. It's more to having … why people would want to strengthen their culture. It's really building their own culture but not to the exclusion of others.
Q. Right. So you told me a little bit … the school was actually established, in did you say- [01:16:07]
RP. in 1942
Interviewer. 1948?
RP. 42
Interviewer. 42, sorry
RP. During the Second World War, during the Blitz.
Q. Yeah. Okay. And has it always been on this side or was … [01:16:22]
RP. It initially opened up in a road that was called Grove Lane. It's now known as Lampert Grove. But it came … I believe in 1944 we came on this side.
Interviewer. [01:16:50] And just, I mean you've talked about how the school differs from some of the other Orthodox Jewish schools in the area. The one that everyone knows about is … I’ve forgotten his name. One established was by Rabbi Schonfeld, um …
RP. oh the Avigdor?
Interviewer. I think yes, the Avigdor.
RP. The Avigdor school that was Rabbi Schonfeld, he was the founder of this community of the Union and of Orthodox Hebrew congregations. He was one of the most … he is the hero of Stamford Hill because a great part of Stamford Hill owe their lives to Rabbi Dr. Schonfeld. Rabbi Dr. Schonfeld, during the Second World War he risked his life many times to bring children from Vienna. In fact my own father came over to London in one of the transports of Dr. Schonfeld. He was the Rabbi of the German, of the Adass, which was a German community and they initially established what was known as the Jewish, the JSSM, the Jewish Secondary Schools Movement which the Avigdor is part of it. What people probably don't realize, that the Avigdor at one time had a secondary school and that closed down and we had the Avigdor primary school which I'm a governor of. The community has become more of Orthodox and whereby the avigdor is a strictly Orthodox school, it's a mixed school. It's mixed when I say there is boys and girls in the Avigdor school. The community in Stamford Hill [are] only sent to single sex schools so therefore the majority of children in the Avigdor at present are actually not from Hackney - are strictly Orthodox children from outside the borough.
Interviewer. Really? I had no idea about that. Okay. That's very interesting. I mean, I've seen girls here. You have girls as well.
RP. We've got, uh, in a separate building.
Interviewer. Separate buildings, right.
RP. I can I ask something? Do you have … Can you wait 20 minutes?
Interviewer. Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
RP. Okay.
Interviewer. If I just, I'll turn the table off.
RP. Okay. No, don't turn them off. I have to go upstairs to a meeting.
[Pause]
[01:20:00] - Interview commences again
Interviewer. Okay. Interview recommencing as the meeting's taking place.
Q. Okay Rabbi Pinter. Before we took a break, you were talking about the Avigdor school and Rabbi Schonfeld’s importance to the community and to that school and education for the whole community in the Stamford Hill area. I'd just like to focus a bit more attention back now onto the Yesodey Hatorah school. Just a simple question basically. Are there any other - as the school's been established for quite a long time - are there any past teachers and pupils who have gone on to prominence in particular areas? Not necessarily sort of nationally well-known people but within the community or wider community. [01:20:06]
RP. Oh well many of our pupils now head the biggest Jewish academies in the world. For an example, the head of the world renowned Gates of Yeshiva is a former student of the Yesodey Hatorah.
Interviewer. Okay. And so is that's something that gives your school a prominence within the-
RP. We even take a look at the … we've got the rabbinical court which has seven members. Three members of the rabbinical court were former students of the Yesodey Hatorah. We have got very successful businessmen where some of our former students are managing directors of public companies, solicitors, accountants, you name [it] we've got-
Q. Well I’ll suggest that you're that you're certainly doing something right in your teaching methods, that which is kind of the next area I wanted to talk about slightly because I mean I understand that teaching methods in an Orthodox Jewish school differ slightly from, and the philosophies behind it, differ slightly from what you would expect to find in a English state school. So could you just tell me a little bit about what your philosophies are here? [01:22:00]
RP. It's important to know … I'm sure everybody knows that the most holy part of a synagogue is the scrolls and that's the sanctity which one treats those scrolls needs to be seen. For only one reason may one sell the Torah scrolls and that is to establish a school which gives you some idea of the importance of Jewish education in Judaism. You cannot separate - there's no such thing as Jewish education and learning and culture. They're all one and intertwined. When we have a pupil at the Yesodey Hatorah, I say to my pupils, if I see sometimes they're not behaving the way they should outside the school, if you're a pupil of the Yesodey Hatorah, you're a pupil there for 24 hours a day. And it runs our whole life.
Q. Okay. What about sort of things in terms of practices within the classroom? [01:23:52]
RP. Well, there is a misconception about the Orthodox Jewish schools. You know, if you'd come along to the school, you would think that um a lot of time is spent on religious education. What people don't understand that yes, a lot of time is spent on Jewish education, but not on religious education because there's Jewish ethics, there's Jewish history, there's Jewish culture. And if you take out ethics, history, culture, you will find that not - that time is spent on Jewish religion - but not as much as you thought.
Interviewer. Okay. No, I mean I wasn’t [overlapping chatter]
RP. No, I'm trying, I'm not, I'll give you whatever it is and you can take up whatever you want. [laughter]. So one of the things which we do, the education is well integrated and this is something which is … when we get inspections from ofsted they're particularly impressed [with] how we integrate the day because that's what the new national curriculum is all about - is integrating as many subjects as possible. And we do that even in our Jewish studies. We will integrate what many subjects which I will describe as secular.
Interviewer. Okay. So-
RP. It's a Jewish way of life.
Q. Can you give an example of a lesson that might integrate a couple of those or … ? [Overlapping chatter]. [01:25:46]
RP. No, no, no, just give me a moment. We have, from us, we have the festival which is known as Shavuos Tabernacles. We will then spend a lot of time in the environment because it is a … many of the Jewish festivals are based around the seasons … in which Passover is in … [murmuring]. I’ll start that again. The Jewish calendar and the Jewish festival are based around the seasons. So when we'll be discussing a Jewish festival, we will be talking about the seasons. We will be talking about what grows in that part of the year and we will spend a lot of time on environmental issues. When it comes to Hanukkah, which is … we light candles. At one time, we had a project at the same time on electricity, on the whole concept of light. And we will try to integrate as many subjects as as possible.
Interviewer. Okay. Excellent example.
RP. No because on to what we did, we actually, we set up a project where we had - Hanukkah has got eight candles and each day we light another candle and what the teacher put together a contraption where it automatically with a time clock and what the children put together with batteries where automatically each day, first day we had one light, the second day we had two lights and introduced a lot of concepts and it was part of a science lesson.
Q. No, that sounds absolutely great. I think I wish I did those sort of things at school like they’re probably a lot more interested in what I was learning in that. Okay, so you came, moving back to your sort of time at the school, you came back from Israel and worked - your father was the head teacher at that time. Is that correct? [01:27:58]
RP. My father was a principal.
Interviewer. Principle, right.
RP. And initially I taught here part-time, I was still studying and I didn't have any responsibilities besides an evening class which I was taking. Slowly, slowly I started taking on more responsibilities. The first time I had to take on responsibility was when a head teacher had to take a prolonged holiday and he became ill and I had to stand in so I was thrown into the deep end and that's when it all started.
Q. Okay. And you've been here, you've been sort of here working sort of more or less full time at the end ever since? [01:29:12]
RP. More full time ever since. Now the school is made up of six different departments and I have heads for all the different sections because it's boys and girls. We have a nursery then we have a kindergarten. Then we've got a junior boy school and a junior girl school and a secondary boys and a secondary girls school. Each with its own line of authority with its own heads and I'm really as a troubleshooter at the top back end there.
Q. Okay. So that's what you would … that was one of my questions. What do you see as your role at the school? You say as sort of a person who holds it all together? [01:29:56]
RP. I help to draw up the policy. I look at the more policy issues than rather the day-to-day running. I will always get involved in the day-to-day business because people, if they find that they've gone through the, I’ll say a complaints procedure, it will always come then to me if they feel that the complaint hasn't been dealt with adequately.
Q. Okay, and how long have you been … So you're the principal now? [01:30:39]
RP. I'm the principal.
Q. How long have you been principal? [01:30:43]
RP. Seven years.
Q. What would you say as your … so that was since your father …? [01:30:47]
RP. My father died.
Q. Okay. What would you see as your main achievements during this period? [01:30:52]
RP. I've seen the school grow. I've seen the school becoming much more academic. And from the time I came in particularly, I've seen development in girls education. We're now looking at where our secondary girls school becoming [?][01:31:24] status with a massive spanking new building. Hopefully that will come about and if that comes about that will be my greatest achievement.
Interviewer. That's what you're working towards. Okay. Right.
RP. [Stuttering] I'm involved in community, I'm involved in many many other areas. I'm involved in housing because I was a counselor, did I tell you? So I'm involved in housing. I'm involved in - I'm chairman of a mental health group. So that also takes a lot of my time.
Q. Yeah, I mean that was [overlapping chatter] no I'm finished talking sort of so much about things within the school. I really want to now focus on how the school sits within the community. And you talked about this, you touched on this in a number of ways already but … if you could just reiterate the importance of this school and of schools to the local community. Talking about Yesodey Hatorah … ? [01:32:07]
RP. The Jewish community has a different moral value, a different … a different, um, when you call it …
[01:33:00] END OF INTERVIEW
Interviewer. [00:46:22] It’s Tuesday the 19th of June, 2001. Okay. Rabbi Pinter, first of all, the purpose of this interview is to talk about the school of which you're headmaster of and and its role within the community. But before we move on to that, I'd just like to sort of try and establish a little bit of background about you and your interests and so on and where you've come from to get to your position, your current position.
Q. So first of all, could you just sort of tell me a little about your parents and your family? [00:46:56]
Rabbi Pinter (RP). Okay. My mother was … she came here when she was 6 years old. She actually came before the Second World War, in 1926. What I understand, my grandparents were thinking of going to the United States and then they decided rather to come to England. My father, he lived in Vienna and in 1938, late 1938, he was told that the Nazis were, um, I'll start off again, okay?
Interviewer. Yeah, sure. Yeah.
RP. My mother came here when she was 6 years old in 1926, when her parents came here from Poland. My father, although he was from Polish extraction, he lived in Vienna. And he was told late in 1938 by a friend of his that - his name was Schmelka - they're coming to get you tonight. Get out. My father, luckily somebody had arranged for him a visa. So he literally, just with the clothes he wore, he got out of Vienna and he came to London. This was in late 1938. And if that wouldn't have happened I probably wouldn't have been here.
Q. Sure. Okay. So, did your parents meet when they were in Britain? I mean, this was when? [00:48:40]
RP. Yes, they got married. My father got married in 1941. Hold on. No, sorry. Sorry. That's wrong. My … 19 … My father got married toward the end of the [Second] World War.
Q. And whereabouts? I mean, how did your parents meet? [00:49:10]
RP. At that time, they both lived with the Jewish, [where] most of the Jewish community lived in that time. Particularly, refugees was in the East End. They both lived in the East End. We get married through introductions and they were introduced to each other and they came from similar backgrounds. Both families were from Rabbinic backgrounds and it was felt it was suitable.
Q. Just sort of to finish off with talking about them, whereabouts did they spend the rest of their lives-? [00:49:44]
RP. Well, my parents came, my father came right away after he got married. He moved into Stanford Hill. He had a house in Bethune Road and then they moved from Bethune Road to Heathland Road, and I was actually born at number 61 Heathland Road, and then they moved for a third time. It was to St. Andrew's Grove. Their life from 1945 till my parents died. My father died seven years ago. They lived in a radius of 500 yards.
Interviewer. Okay. [Stuttering] So they moved, you say immediately after, they moved to, after they married they moved to this area.
RP. That's right.
Q. What would you say was the thing that attracted them most to the area, at that point? [00:50:48]
RP. It seemed what was that the Jewish area, when I'm talking about the strictly Orthodox Jewish area, was starting to establish itself in the Stamford Hill area. Why particularly Stamford Hill, I don't know. There was initially in the late 30s, the strictly orthodox community that lived here were the community from Germany, the German community which was commonly known as the Adass. They still have their synagogue in number 40 Queen Elizabeth’s Walk and now they also have a branch what in Ravensdale Road which is known as the Tottenham Adass. That was the initial community, the forerunner, and they set up what's known as the Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congregations. In fact then, at that time, the majority of the strictly orthodox community were German Jews. That's completely changed. I would say that 75% of Stamford Hill are Hasidic Jews and the German Jews are only a small minority of the strictly Orthodox community now, although they were the ones who initially set up this community.
Q. Okay. I'll certainly come back to that change in makeup later on in the interview. Going back to your childhood then. So you grew up in Stamford Hill. Is that correct? [00:52:28]
RP. I grew up, I was born in Stamford Hill and I was born in Stoke Newington [laughs]. It was then known as Stoke Newington. This was, you know the area where I lived was … although it was commonly called Stamford Hill, there was a Stoke Newington area of Stamford Hill and a Hackney area of Stamford Hill. I was born in the Stoke Newington part of Stamford Hill.
Q. Okay. Because you were living within a fairly close-knit Orthodox Jewish community. I mean, did the people that you know and your friends and so on all come from within that community or did you have friends outside the community? [00:53:08]
RP. Nearly all my friends were within the community. At that time the community outside were much less tolerant than they were now. Although anti-semitism is still going strong, it's nothing to compare to what it was when I was a little boy.
Q. Okay. Right. I mean basically before we finish talking about your childhood, are there any particular things that you remember? Stories or anything about your childhood which sum up the experience that you had? This is a bit of an open question, but is there anything that jumps to mind, springs to mind from your childhood that you'd like to share with the table or - [00:54:01]
RP. With you? I'll tell you [an] experience and you feel if it's useful or not. One of the experiences which I remember, I probably was at that time 11 years old. We have our hairstyle is not … um, let me start off again. [Long pause]. As you've probably noticed, I have sideboards and our hair is cut very short. [Pause]. As you know, I have sideboards and my hair is cut very short. There was one thing I remember that if we ever needed to go to Manor House, we were always scared to pass through to Woodberry Down Estate. There would always be incidents. One day I had to go to Manor House and I said, "Am I going to go the long way round?" And I walked through the Estate and when I -
[Pause for external conversation]
I was walking through the estate and all of a sudden, I can see about six, seven, 14 to 15 year olds approaching me. I also became very frightened. They come along to me and they start laughing. Said, "Take off your hat. We want to see your haircuts." Didn't have any alternative. I took off my hat. They had a good laugh and I started walking on. Carrying on about another 20 yards, another group of 14 to 15 year olds come and start approaching me and said, "Oh, here's a bloody Jew. Let's beat him up." All of a sudden, the previous group said, "You don't touch him. He's our friend.”. They started fighting with each other, and I just walked home glad to get out of that mess. But whenever I think back, I found it was so funny. It is sad but something like that would never happen like that. My children are growing up and although they come home with experiences, it's not those sort of experiences anymore. It's more verbal abuse. I was beaten up on two occasions as a child. I'm not sure if it's something
Interviewer. No, that's very relevant indeed. And I think it's also important that as you're doing that you explain how things have changed, if not totally for the better, certainly moving in the right direction and so on. No, I think that's … I mean this is what fundamentally what this exhibition is about
[Cross talk]
RP. It's a funny story, just purely yobbism because they went, you know, the first group were just making fun of me, but they [laughs]
Q. Sure. [Laughs]. Okay. So, you grew up in this area, and then when you left school … well, basically what sort of things interested you when you first left school? I mean, obviously there was [inaudible][00:58:44], when you felt - [00:58:25]
RP. I actually wasn't a very successful student. And it's funny now many people turn around and tell and say to them “well if Abraham Pinter turned out the way he is, you know you've also got a chance.” I wasn't very, in particularly in school and it was only when I was 17 and I was studying in Israel did I start looking at myself and said where am I going and did I take an interest in studying.
Q. So why did you end up, how did you end up studying in Israel then? [00:59:27]
RP. [Stuttering] It's now fairly routine now, at that time it wasn't. It is because I came from a house of learning and it was expected of me, as I came from a rabbinical family that I should follow that line or to become a Rabbi or to be in education. The best schools at those times were in Israel. It's called the yeshiva and I went there when I was 17.
Q. So did any other of your brothers go there as well or …? [01:00:09]
RP. They all went to yeshivas. My older brother, he also went to Israel but my two younger brothers studied in this country in yeshivas.
Q. Okay. Right. So I mean, while you were doing that, what did you find that you became more interested in your religion and in the culture that went with it or did that change your attitudes to -? [01:00:30]
RP. Well, I think it's the culture, you know, there's no … you can't divide religion and culture. It's all one. I was always … from the moment I can remember, I always felt Jewish and that was my life and I was always interested in Judaism. That's always led me to do whatever I had. You know what my ethics and my morals are all built on my Jewish upbringing. That made me join the Labor Party and that made me join the council that … you know, I've given a lot of my life to the community; to my own community and to the community around me. And it was my Jewish upbringing. It's very difficult to call it “it's a Jewish religious upbringing,” I would say it's a Jewish upbringing. You can't divide the two.
Q. Okay. No, that's very interesting. It's not something necessarily that other people from other cultures would be so definite on, but it's, I mean … it's quite possibly the sort of thing [inaudible][01:02:15]. So, you said a number of things already which are, actually, I can imagine we'll be using. So, okay, moving on. I just also as well as talking about your religion and about your education, I'm just interested as soon … how you … what you would do during your free time, what interested you in your … how your social life develops. [01:02:01]
RP. Well, I can talk possibly a little bit more about my … about my … something about the community. It might be helpful. I remember, one of the things which I remember whilst growing up, how I found when I met people from the wider community, I always felt that life was very boring. Now I was born in England. My mother came from Poland. My father came from Austria. The further I went up, my great-grandparents came from different countries. And I remember I once went on holiday and I met a woman and asked you know where she came from. She says um well I'm from Frinton. That's where you were born. And said “where did your parents come from?” “They came from Clacton.” “Where did your grandparents come from?” “Also from Clacton.” And I felt how boring it was. And now I look, I'm married now. My wife was born in Paris. Her mother was Czech, her father was Romanian. And she moved to, they moved to the United States. And after I got married, I was living in Israel. And, little did I realize that I felt that my richness was coming from being a refugee and coming from one country to another. But one thing I was always brought up to believe, to look at the good even in the negative.
Q. So what do you mean? What do you mean by that? [01:04:41]
RP. Well, being, you know, I just thought that somebody who just came from one culture, was born in England and their parents and their grandparents and I thought it was very boring and I thought how rich I was that I come-
Q. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I understand that. I mean, what do you mean by “look at the good from the negative?” Is that- [01:04:55]
RP. Well this is something that it's looking … you know somebody could say well being thrown from country to country being negative, not being able to establish yourself in any community, you know that surely is not, it's not a positive, you know it's … I feel now that we've been the last … I spent most of my life in Stamford Hill and hopefully I'll spend the rest of my life in Stamford Hill. Its stability. It's where the community is able to set itself up. Um but at that time I didn't see that being thrown from country to country and having to leave each country in a hurry was a negative point.
Q. Sure. That's very interesting. Okay. I mean I think we're gonna keep coming back to this sense of community throughout the interview because I think it's fundamental to what we're talking about. But I mean, moving on through your life, I've put down a question: what was your first job? I mean, possibly it wasn't actually … was it in a religious context? [01:05:52]
RP. When I was in Israel, I subsequently got married and we decided we'll spend the first two years or three years in Israel because I was still studying and we had a completely open mind. I was British, my wife was American. And we say we take it day by day. I was offered a job. It was a part-time job teaching 13 year olds and I really enjoyed it. And my wife, she also started teaching in Israel and she particularly enjoyed because she taught children who came from dysfunctional homes and really felt that she was getting through to these children. And that time we said we let's settle in Israel. But it didn't turn out that way. We weren't able to buy a house. We weren't able to settle down and we decided then to come to London. My father was then the principal of the school. I came in and I assisted him. My wife at that time, she got involved in the girls school and we haven't turned back since then.
Q. Okay. Well, that moves neatly on to where my next question, which was really, it was slightly more general than just for this school. But yeah, could you … given a sort of background to the Jewish community, the Orthodox Jewish community in this area, but could you give a sort of positive history of Orthodox Jewish education and schools in the area? [01:08:01]
RP. I think I need to really give you … because I really haven't given you the … I just give you the … how the Jewish community came here because -
Interviewer: Well, I'll talk about that again later. So, I mean, yeah.
RP. Initially, they were, this is one of the first schools which established itself in the in the area. It was the Yesodey Hatorah school. It started off in 1942 with six children. These was started off when [the] people [who] came over there were refugees and it was very important - what the refugees who arrived here right before the war, what were they different than the other refugees who came in the 1890s or the 1920s when the main part of the Jewish community who came down to the Stamford Hill or to the East End, what one would describe as traditional Jewish community. Those communities made a choice to come to England. It was … when you say a ‘choice,’ it wasn't really a choice. They came to escape pogroms, poverty, but it still was a choice. They came here in a way, they were prepared to assimilate to some degree and tried to fit in to the host community.
[01:10:10] My father, he ended up here. And I'd say 90% of the original strictly Orthodox community in Stamford Hill were in that category. They didn't want to assimilate. They were happy that this country opened their doors to them. They were refugees who never knew what was going … what the next day would bring. It was still during the war the threat of Hitler coming to England was very live then. So the first thing they said to themselves [is] we need to protect our culture. We need to protect identity. So they didn't have any food to take in their mouth. But they establish a school with six pupils.
This school has now over a thousand children. But beside the school, within a mile of here, there's probably 20 other schools, some smaller some bigger, which have now grown out for the Jewish … catering to the strictly Orthodox Jewish community. Each school has something different to in terms of culture. We're the … Yesodey Hatorah is different than to most of the other schools, we cater to the cross-section of the community. Some of the other schools will cater … although they all cater to the whole community but they would specifically cater to one of the different sections of that community.
Q. Okay. So I mean, so are you saying it's a more sort of, it's a broader school in terms of the intake and in terms of the parents it attracts? [01:12:08]
RP. In Stamford Hill you probably have at least 40 sections of the Orthodox Jewish community. The difference is mainly to do with geography. A lot of people, when they see people walking in the street - people in the Orthodox Jewish community - and they see different sorts of modes of dress, different sorts of haircuts, they might get the idea that this particular family is more religious than the other family. That's not so. They're probably just as religious. It is their mode of dress and the way they look is probably more to do from which part of the world they originally came from. And as I said earlier, 75% of the community are Hasidic. Within Hasidic, there's 30 different groups living in Stamford Hill. Then we've got the Sephardi community which is the oriental community. But then there's also different section of those from Africa. You would even have in the same country different traditions. Just to give you an example, the Jews who lived in Morocco, those who lived in the cities and those who lived in the mountains were very different and had a completely different culture. Then you have the German community, you have the Austro-hungarian community, you have the Lithuanian community. Each one with their own traditions, but what's really important, it's what they have in common which keeps them together. We at the Yesodey Hatorah, we have all those groups.
Q. Okay. So I mean just as a sort of follow on question from what you described the differences within the community that you described. But in terms of … you said that the community itself has largely, consciously made a choice not to assimilate with the rest of society in Hackney on a large scale. Have these individual groups chosen to assimilate within the wider Orthodox community or do they … I mean, clearly in their dress sense they retain facets of their origins, but is that- (RP. In the wider or strict Orthodox community?) Yeah within the community. [01:14:20]
RP. Yeah, um, very very much so. There's a lot of interaction within the community. They're supportive of each other. If somebody sets up a business, we will support each other. If a person has difficulties, people from different communities will help those outside their community.
Q. Great. Okay. So it's more a case of within the community those are pulling together looking at the commonality.
RP. It's more to having … why people would want to strengthen their culture. It's really building their own culture but not to the exclusion of others.
Q. Right. So you told me a little bit … the school was actually established, in did you say- [01:16:07]
RP. in 1942
Interviewer. 1948?
RP. 42
Interviewer. 42, sorry
RP. During the Second World War, during the Blitz.
Q. Yeah. Okay. And has it always been on this side or was … [01:16:22]
RP. It initially opened up in a road that was called Grove Lane. It's now known as Lampert Grove. But it came … I believe in 1944 we came on this side.
Interviewer. [01:16:50] And just, I mean you've talked about how the school differs from some of the other Orthodox Jewish schools in the area. The one that everyone knows about is … I’ve forgotten his name. One established was by Rabbi Schonfeld, um …
RP. oh the Avigdor?
Interviewer. I think yes, the Avigdor.
RP. The Avigdor school that was Rabbi Schonfeld, he was the founder of this community of the Union and of Orthodox Hebrew congregations. He was one of the most … he is the hero of Stamford Hill because a great part of Stamford Hill owe their lives to Rabbi Dr. Schonfeld. Rabbi Dr. Schonfeld, during the Second World War he risked his life many times to bring children from Vienna. In fact my own father came over to London in one of the transports of Dr. Schonfeld. He was the Rabbi of the German, of the Adass, which was a German community and they initially established what was known as the Jewish, the JSSM, the Jewish Secondary Schools Movement which the Avigdor is part of it. What people probably don't realize, that the Avigdor at one time had a secondary school and that closed down and we had the Avigdor primary school which I'm a governor of. The community has become more of Orthodox and whereby the avigdor is a strictly Orthodox school, it's a mixed school. It's mixed when I say there is boys and girls in the Avigdor school. The community in Stamford Hill [are] only sent to single sex schools so therefore the majority of children in the Avigdor at present are actually not from Hackney - are strictly Orthodox children from outside the borough.
Interviewer. Really? I had no idea about that. Okay. That's very interesting. I mean, I've seen girls here. You have girls as well.
RP. We've got, uh, in a separate building.
Interviewer. Separate buildings, right.
RP. I can I ask something? Do you have … Can you wait 20 minutes?
Interviewer. Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
RP. Okay.
Interviewer. If I just, I'll turn the table off.
RP. Okay. No, don't turn them off. I have to go upstairs to a meeting.
[Pause]
[01:20:00] - Interview commences again
Interviewer. Okay. Interview recommencing as the meeting's taking place.
Q. Okay Rabbi Pinter. Before we took a break, you were talking about the Avigdor school and Rabbi Schonfeld’s importance to the community and to that school and education for the whole community in the Stamford Hill area. I'd just like to focus a bit more attention back now onto the Yesodey Hatorah school. Just a simple question basically. Are there any other - as the school's been established for quite a long time - are there any past teachers and pupils who have gone on to prominence in particular areas? Not necessarily sort of nationally well-known people but within the community or wider community. [01:20:06]
RP. Oh well many of our pupils now head the biggest Jewish academies in the world. For an example, the head of the world renowned Gates of Yeshiva is a former student of the Yesodey Hatorah.
Interviewer. Okay. And so is that's something that gives your school a prominence within the-
RP. We even take a look at the … we've got the rabbinical court which has seven members. Three members of the rabbinical court were former students of the Yesodey Hatorah. We have got very successful businessmen where some of our former students are managing directors of public companies, solicitors, accountants, you name [it] we've got-
Q. Well I’ll suggest that you're that you're certainly doing something right in your teaching methods, that which is kind of the next area I wanted to talk about slightly because I mean I understand that teaching methods in an Orthodox Jewish school differ slightly from, and the philosophies behind it, differ slightly from what you would expect to find in a English state school. So could you just tell me a little bit about what your philosophies are here? [01:22:00]
RP. It's important to know … I'm sure everybody knows that the most holy part of a synagogue is the scrolls and that's the sanctity which one treats those scrolls needs to be seen. For only one reason may one sell the Torah scrolls and that is to establish a school which gives you some idea of the importance of Jewish education in Judaism. You cannot separate - there's no such thing as Jewish education and learning and culture. They're all one and intertwined. When we have a pupil at the Yesodey Hatorah, I say to my pupils, if I see sometimes they're not behaving the way they should outside the school, if you're a pupil of the Yesodey Hatorah, you're a pupil there for 24 hours a day. And it runs our whole life.
Q. Okay. What about sort of things in terms of practices within the classroom? [01:23:52]
RP. Well, there is a misconception about the Orthodox Jewish schools. You know, if you'd come along to the school, you would think that um a lot of time is spent on religious education. What people don't understand that yes, a lot of time is spent on Jewish education, but not on religious education because there's Jewish ethics, there's Jewish history, there's Jewish culture. And if you take out ethics, history, culture, you will find that not - that time is spent on Jewish religion - but not as much as you thought.
Interviewer. Okay. No, I mean I wasn’t [overlapping chatter]
RP. No, I'm trying, I'm not, I'll give you whatever it is and you can take up whatever you want. [laughter]. So one of the things which we do, the education is well integrated and this is something which is … when we get inspections from ofsted they're particularly impressed [with] how we integrate the day because that's what the new national curriculum is all about - is integrating as many subjects as possible. And we do that even in our Jewish studies. We will integrate what many subjects which I will describe as secular.
Interviewer. Okay. So-
RP. It's a Jewish way of life.
Q. Can you give an example of a lesson that might integrate a couple of those or … ? [Overlapping chatter]. [01:25:46]
RP. No, no, no, just give me a moment. We have, from us, we have the festival which is known as Shavuos Tabernacles. We will then spend a lot of time in the environment because it is a … many of the Jewish festivals are based around the seasons … in which Passover is in … [murmuring]. I’ll start that again. The Jewish calendar and the Jewish festival are based around the seasons. So when we'll be discussing a Jewish festival, we will be talking about the seasons. We will be talking about what grows in that part of the year and we will spend a lot of time on environmental issues. When it comes to Hanukkah, which is … we light candles. At one time, we had a project at the same time on electricity, on the whole concept of light. And we will try to integrate as many subjects as as possible.
Interviewer. Okay. Excellent example.
RP. No because on to what we did, we actually, we set up a project where we had - Hanukkah has got eight candles and each day we light another candle and what the teacher put together a contraption where it automatically with a time clock and what the children put together with batteries where automatically each day, first day we had one light, the second day we had two lights and introduced a lot of concepts and it was part of a science lesson.
Q. No, that sounds absolutely great. I think I wish I did those sort of things at school like they’re probably a lot more interested in what I was learning in that. Okay, so you came, moving back to your sort of time at the school, you came back from Israel and worked - your father was the head teacher at that time. Is that correct? [01:27:58]
RP. My father was a principal.
Interviewer. Principle, right.
RP. And initially I taught here part-time, I was still studying and I didn't have any responsibilities besides an evening class which I was taking. Slowly, slowly I started taking on more responsibilities. The first time I had to take on responsibility was when a head teacher had to take a prolonged holiday and he became ill and I had to stand in so I was thrown into the deep end and that's when it all started.
Q. Okay. And you've been here, you've been sort of here working sort of more or less full time at the end ever since? [01:29:12]
RP. More full time ever since. Now the school is made up of six different departments and I have heads for all the different sections because it's boys and girls. We have a nursery then we have a kindergarten. Then we've got a junior boy school and a junior girl school and a secondary boys and a secondary girls school. Each with its own line of authority with its own heads and I'm really as a troubleshooter at the top back end there.
Q. Okay. So that's what you would … that was one of my questions. What do you see as your role at the school? You say as sort of a person who holds it all together? [01:29:56]
RP. I help to draw up the policy. I look at the more policy issues than rather the day-to-day running. I will always get involved in the day-to-day business because people, if they find that they've gone through the, I’ll say a complaints procedure, it will always come then to me if they feel that the complaint hasn't been dealt with adequately.
Q. Okay, and how long have you been … So you're the principal now? [01:30:39]
RP. I'm the principal.
Q. How long have you been principal? [01:30:43]
RP. Seven years.
Q. What would you say as your … so that was since your father …? [01:30:47]
RP. My father died.
Q. Okay. What would you see as your main achievements during this period? [01:30:52]
RP. I've seen the school grow. I've seen the school becoming much more academic. And from the time I came in particularly, I've seen development in girls education. We're now looking at where our secondary girls school becoming [?][01:31:24] status with a massive spanking new building. Hopefully that will come about and if that comes about that will be my greatest achievement.
Interviewer. That's what you're working towards. Okay. Right.
RP. [Stuttering] I'm involved in community, I'm involved in many many other areas. I'm involved in housing because I was a counselor, did I tell you? So I'm involved in housing. I'm involved in - I'm chairman of a mental health group. So that also takes a lot of my time.
Q. Yeah, I mean that was [overlapping chatter] no I'm finished talking sort of so much about things within the school. I really want to now focus on how the school sits within the community. And you talked about this, you touched on this in a number of ways already but … if you could just reiterate the importance of this school and of schools to the local community. Talking about Yesodey Hatorah … ? [01:32:07]
RP. The Jewish community has a different moral value, a different … a different, um, when you call it …
[01:33:00] END OF INTERVIEW