Oral History Interview - Stanley and Adella Dormer
Object
Audio file
Production date
2008
Object number
2026.137
Physical Description
Audio recording (.mp3) of an oral history interview with Stanley and Adella Dormer. Stanley and Adella were born in Jamaica and moved to the UK to work and raise their family. They lived in Hackney and talk about having to use a paraffin heater to stay warm.
Total Length - 42 minutes, 38 seconds
Total Length - 42 minutes, 38 seconds
Description
[00:00:00] Introductions, where they lived in Jamaica.
[00:00:53] Where and how they met.
[00:02:10] Their parents and their own professions
[00:03:15] Reasons for leaving Jamaica and coming to England
[00:04:29] How Stanley travelled to England, impressions during winter, what he was wearing
[00:06:29] First place living in England, the cold, work in Hackney, Newington Green.
[00:10:34] Experiences of workplace racism
[00:12:18] Travel to England
[00:15:13] Houseshare on Balls Pond Road, life in the house, cooking on the heater
[00:19:04] Keeping warm, especially in the winter.
[00:20:45] Adella’s difficulty getting a job. Working as a seamstress
[00:22:25] Prejudice in the workplace
[00:24:06] Wages, rent, moving around jobs
[00:25:50] Difficult situation with their landlord.
[00:27:17] Renting a houseshare on Calderstone Crescent, move to Lauriston Road, using public baths, drying clothes with a heater
[00:32:21] Living in a council home on Sidworth Street
[00:34:04] Stanley finding the houseshare on Calderstone Crescent
[00:35:34] Darkness in the winter, hearing other people’s bad experiences whilst in Jamaica, prejudice in America and Britain.
[00:37:28] How Hackney has changed from the 1960s. Meeting other West Indian people in Britain
[00:39:28] Adella’s lack of friends in Britain, feeling lonely, house parties
[00:41:01] Memories from Jamaica, visiting Jamaica after 13 years in Britain.
[00:00:53] Where and how they met.
[00:02:10] Their parents and their own professions
[00:03:15] Reasons for leaving Jamaica and coming to England
[00:04:29] How Stanley travelled to England, impressions during winter, what he was wearing
[00:06:29] First place living in England, the cold, work in Hackney, Newington Green.
[00:10:34] Experiences of workplace racism
[00:12:18] Travel to England
[00:15:13] Houseshare on Balls Pond Road, life in the house, cooking on the heater
[00:19:04] Keeping warm, especially in the winter.
[00:20:45] Adella’s difficulty getting a job. Working as a seamstress
[00:22:25] Prejudice in the workplace
[00:24:06] Wages, rent, moving around jobs
[00:25:50] Difficult situation with their landlord.
[00:27:17] Renting a houseshare on Calderstone Crescent, move to Lauriston Road, using public baths, drying clothes with a heater
[00:32:21] Living in a council home on Sidworth Street
[00:34:04] Stanley finding the houseshare on Calderstone Crescent
[00:35:34] Darkness in the winter, hearing other people’s bad experiences whilst in Jamaica, prejudice in America and Britain.
[00:37:28] How Hackney has changed from the 1960s. Meeting other West Indian people in Britain
[00:39:28] Adella’s lack of friends in Britain, feeling lonely, house parties
[00:41:01] Memories from Jamaica, visiting Jamaica after 13 years in Britain.
Associated Person
On display?
No
Inscription
Transcript of interview with Stanley and Adella Dormer.
Interviewer (I): So, it's July the 4th, 2008. I'm at Hackney Museum. Violet. And we are recording Stanley and Adella. Can you tell me your surnames, please? [00:00:00]
Stanley Dormer (SD): Dormer
I: Dormer. Stanley, can I ask you first when you were born? [00:00:17]
SD: The 27th of the 2nd, 1936.
I: And where was that? [00:00:25]
SD: That is in Jamaica, in Parish Portland. That's the east end of the Island.
I: And had your parents lived there? [00:00:34]
SD: Yes.
I: For some time? [00:00:36]
SD: Yes
I: And Adela? [00:00:38]
Adella Dormer (AD): I was born on the 21st of March 1943, Parish Portland, in Jamaica.
I: And did you both meet in Jamaica? [00:00:53]
Both. Yes.
I: When did you meet? [long pause] And how did you meet? [00:00:57]
AD: When I first met Stan I used to go to learn dress making and during the day my friend and I, we saw these two guys at the Roden, but actually she knew them I didn't, and she actually called his name. So that same evening I was walking to go into town and he was riding, coming behind me and said something cheeky [laughs] and I turned around to, you know, tell him off and that's how it started. He started coming every evening [everyone laughs]. I’d say that was about 1958 … 57?
SD: 58.
I: When did you get married? [00:02:06]
AD: We got married 1964 here in England.
I: Oh, right, yes. So, just to go back to Jamaica again, what profession were your parents? [00:02:10]
SD: My dad was a building contractor and my mum was a housewife.
I: And you, what was your work? [00:02:27]
SD: Well, I was doing signing writing and then I … a friend of mine was doing plumbing. So I switched to plumbing and then I came to England
I: So you trained as a plumber in Jamaica?
SD: Yes. Not domestic. It was just commercial
I: And Adella you said you were a sewer - a seamstress.
AD: Yeah. My dad was a farmer and my mum was a housewife. So I came here doing the same thing.
I: So you didn't come here together. You came here independently of each other. And why did you decide to come to this country? [Cross talk] Adella. [00:03:15]
AD: Well, I didn't have any … I didn't know … Well, you don't know what your future's going to be, so. I mean, after I met Stan, he already … he got to come here inaudible[00:03:45].
I: So you came because you wanted to be with Stan? [00:03:48]
AD: Yeah.
I: [To Stan] And what were your reasons for leaving Jamaica and coming here? [00:03:52]
SD: Well what I wanted was to improve on the domestic plumbing that I was doing. So I decided to spend about five years. But after six months and she came here. And you have children, and you get used to the system inaudible[00:04:18]
I: It's hard to go home again?
SD: Yes.
AD: At that time.
SD: At that time.
I: Stanley, you came first before Adella. How did you travel? [00:04:29]
SD: I came by airplane. It was an interesting thing [laughs].
I: Tell me.
SD: Well, we didn't have any idea about the snow or anything that is cold.
I: So, you arrived in the winter?
SD: Yes.
I: And what were your first impressions as you got off the plane? [00:04:51]
SD: Well, it was very cold, but I didn't know that the houses were houses because they look like a factory [with] chimney pots in them. Thought they were factories
I: Because your houses in Jamaica are different?
SD: Yes. Yes. Just like we call ordinary town houses, you don't have any chimney because we don't have any winter.
I: So the chimneys that was your first … you thought there were factories?
SD: Yes.
I: And there was snow on the ground when you arrived?
SD: Yes, it was.
I: And what were you wearing? [00:05:37]
SD: Well, it was just an ordinary pair of shoes and we didn't have any winter coat or anything. We didn't know what we were expecting anyway.
I: Nobody had told you or warned you?
SD: Well, they say it's winter. I was told that it would be the coldest winter for 35 years. But I know that I'm coming and I had no idea what winter was. You see, it's just like a shot in the dark really. So when I came here, there was no turning back anywhere.
I: So how did you feel? [00:06:17]
SD: You feel like you want to turn back and go, but you could never do that.
I: So where did - you when you first arrived, where did you first live? [00:06:29]
SD: I was living in Battersea.
I: What was that like?
SD: It wasn't very good because it's a lot, you have to live in one room. So, it was a bit crowded.
I: How many in one?
SD: Well, it's about four. And of course we didn't have any experience of anything at all. And I was, as I said before, the people that own the property, they were out at work because they were here a long time before us. And all the pipes were frozen, no water. And we just had to get some snow, put in the pan, put it on the fire, melt it, and cook the food. So we had to improvise really [laughs].
I: You must have thought you'd come to some terrible freezing place.
SD: I thought that was whatever I let myself think.
I: Cold, you felt cold.
SD: Yes, very very cold. And at the time I didn't realize because they say it is cold. So I was thinking of putting on a lot of socks and keep your feet warm. But that was a very bad thing to do because it was too hot. Then your children … It was very bad [laughs].
I: And did you have work to come to? [00:08:35]
SD: No, I didn't have work to come to. I think at that time you could get work very easily. So I didn't have any problem getting work
I: As a plumber?
SD: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I spent about five weeks in Battersea and then I came to Hackney, Newington Green. And from there I start to work. No problem at all getting a job. But the funny thing was, I wanted was to continue with my sign writing and artist. I used to mix colors as well and engrave and head stones - I used to do that as well. So I wanted to do the same thing. But I phone up a few places and one place that I phone up, which was very funny, It was interesting. When I phoned, the guy said to me, ‘Yes, we have a vacancy, and I gather from your voice,’ he said, ‘that you're a West Indian.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ And he said, ‘It's a small firm and we don't really take West Indians.’ So I just couldn't believe it. But I admire him anyway because he was honest to tell me and don't wait until I come to the factory, then he say ‘oh you can’t get the job’. So I was upset but I think he was honest.
I: And did you experience other forms of racism? [00:10:34]
SD: Yes. If I decided to go into the building trade and plumbing. And what I found out is sometimes you'll go to the job and you'll enter the gates and you'll ask if there's any vacancy and someone will be there like somebody digging the ground or just standing there and they'll say no vacancy and those people, they are not working in the office. They have no idea what is going on in the office and they say no vacancy. So after a while you understand and you pass them and go into the office. That was it - learning.
I: So when you went into the office then you were more likely to get work. [00:11:28]
SD: Yes. Yes.
I: Was that a shock to you? [00:11:38]
SD: It wasn't a shock because from the time I was told that they didn't employ West Indian in this factory, I understand.
I: But when you were back in Jamaica, did it ever cross your mind that kind of thing would happen? [00:12:00]
SD: No, I think it would happen in America, but not in England.
I: Shall I go to Adella now and then we'll come back. So six months you were in Jamaica wanting to come and meet up with Stanley again. So how did you come to this? How did you travel? [00:12:18]
AD: By plane as well. It was kind of a nice experience but a bit I would say scary because it was night, you know, you couldn't - you looked through the window, you couldn't see anything if it was dark. And I think there was a lot of I don't know if you could say they were scared people, but everybody was reading their Bible [laughs]
I: Everybody on the plane?
AD: Almost everybody was reading their Bible, you know, so.
I: Jamaicans?
AD: Yeah, because it was from Jamaica, so they're all Jamaicans. We made one stop in New Foundland and we could get out and walk a little bit, but it was freezing. It was really, really cold. But that was in June, so here would be like the start of summer. I think the plane stopped for probably about two hours. So then we got back and when we landed it was still night. And I'm not sure if the flight was cancelled, but I think where Stan should have met me, he couldn't because the plane was transferred to Stanstead instead of landing at Heathrow., I think it was Heathrow - it landed at Stansted. So I mean, I was really worried. I was kind of feeling lost because I mean it's a strange place. There was this one nice young man, I think he had traveled before and you know he actually came with me from Stanstead, can't remember which train station it was, to where I'm supposed to meet Stan and you know actually found him and said that I was there. But I mean I couldn't see anything then because that was night, but in the morning you know that was still stranger because the houses there, you're not used to those kind of houses because they're not so close to each other in Jamaica they’re more like if you're living outside London and they’re separate, you got land and everything around you, so that was a bit strange. People are okay because we're used to white people in Jamaica, so there's no inaudible[00:15:10]
I: What was the house like? This was in Newington Green? [00:15:13]
AD: No, but then we had moved to just off Balls Pond Road. Living in … that would be N1 anyway, it was just off Balls Pond road.
I: What sort of accommodation? Well, it's just a room. The person who owns the house lives downstairs and then there's about five other tenants, each have a room. There was cooker on the first floor for everybody else. Just one bathroom. [00:15:35]
I: One bathroom for how many people?
AD: Yeah. Even the house owner as well. So everybody - and she had three children [laughs]. So in all there were four, four, five of them [children], about 10 people living in that house. So we had one bathroom.
I: And the cooking?
AD: The cooking facility was on the first floor landing. So the people from upstairs would come down and cook as well.
I: So how did you manage that with everybody wanting to cook at once? [00:16:28]
AD: Ah well, you have just to kind of figure out … because those from up the top floor, they work at night. And if you work during the day, you know you just have to figure things out to get around that. Hence we started cooking on the heater [laughs].
I: Because what kind of stove was on the landing? [00:16:56]
AD: Gas stove, a gas stove.
I: And was there a fridge? [00:17:01]
AD: Oh no, no fridge. Nothing like that.
I: Just a gas stove.
AD: Just a gas stove. There's …
I: And you kept all your pots and pans and things in your room.
AD: Everything.
I: And your food?
AD: Everything.
I: How did you keep your food fresh? [00:17:19]
AD: Well, you shop from day to day. You shop every day. Things like margarine, you keep that in a container. Everything else you have to go out and get it. I mean, I didn't … it took me a while to get a job.
I: Just to go back before you turn about the job, tell us about cooking on the heater. [00:17:43]
AD: Okay. Well, I realized that, you know, we were kind of getting in each other's way to, you know, using the stove or otherwise you'd have to precook your meal from the day - evening - before and then you could warm it up. So before I started to work, because we used to use it for the kettle, I just thought, well if you can use it for the kettle you cook on it as well. So we just started cooking on it and it made life a bit, much more easier.
I: What kind of things did you cook? [00:18:25]
AD: Oh [laughs] traditional rice and peas. Well, we cook the peas on the gas cooker because that used to be like a Sunday dinner. So, it be rice and peas and chicken. So, I would cook the peas Saturday night on the gas cooker and then, because the rice only needs not a lot of cooking, so you could do that Sunday morning. You do the chicken there as well, finish it up on the -
I: On the heat, so you always had it hot?
AD: Yes, yes.
I: And were you warm enough? Did it give you enough heat? [00:19:04]
AD: We had hot water bottles [laughs] because you couldn't actually burn it all night because of the smell. So, we had water bottles. We have to have long sleeve night dresses. Night dress. Well, he's got pajamas. You wear socks.
I: Did you have to buy a lot more clothes when you came over here? [00:19:30]
AD: Oh, yeah, yeah. Warm clothes in the winter, yeah. I mean, I came in June, which was kind of like the sort of summer, so it wasn't too bad. It was sunny, but still chilly, well, cold. But yeah, we had to buy a lot of clothes - boots, vests, never wore vests [laughs].
I: What did you think? [00:19:56]
AD: Well, when the winter did come, I just felt like going back [laughs]. It was very … I cried and I think a lot of people did cry because, you know, you're not expecting that. I mean, you see a picture postcard of the winter, but you know, it's still not … it's not the feeling. It's just … Once you spend a couple winters, then you just kind of get used to it and it's hard work. It's a good experience after a while, but it was hard.
[00:20:45] And regarding jobs, well, I probably had more refusal than he had because, well, he's a professional person whereas I'm just a seamstress. Although there was a lot of that going on but because you're from the West Indies and they're going to ask you the last place that you work you have to say the West Indies. So that wasn't recognised at all. So they would take you but at a lower rate. So you have to work for three or six months to prove yourself.
But my first job it was, one of the ladies that live on the premises used to work in Old Street and she got me my first job which was good. But -
I: What was it doing? [00:21:46]
AD: It was making jackets - the whole rag trade. So they made mens’ and ladies’ clothes. And I was lucky because they were prepared to teach me the whole trade because the foreman said to me, you know, that it looks like I'm eager to learn and somebody who would learn. So he was prepared to keep me. But I had, strangely, I had prejudice from my own color. I couldn't believe that.
I: Why is that? [00:22:25]
AD: I don't know. I used to work with four older people. So I was the youngest person there, I didn't really mind. And I was learning the trade, you know, from bottom up. So if a coat is made, you have to … they would mark the hem. So I mark the hem and they show me how to hem it and stuff. The last person to show me was a West Indian lady and I don't know for some reason she really resented me and I had to leave the job. Because … you know when you're young and they have a saying to say you're hotheaded. So I just couldn't take it because you don't want to go into work and feel unhappy, work place should be a happy place and she just find a lot of faults all the time. Where the other three ladies never did because the … you know, I mentioned it to the, what we call, the foreman then and I said, ‘no she's fine,’ I mean if there was a problem they would they would have said. But I had to leave in the end. But I got to find out that she had a niece who was coming up and she wanted this space for her niece because she was coming up to do nursing. But she wasn't the right age, she had about another year to reach 18 at the time. But I mean, it was a good job. When I went back -
I: Do you remember how much you got paid? [00:24:06]
AD: Seven shillings [laughs]. Seven shillings a week is a lot! [All laugh] How much is that now? Seven shillings, that's …
I: Less than 50 pence.
AD: [Overlapping chatter] I mean in 1962. That was quite good because I mean things were cheap. Your shopping would have probably cost you, for two people, about five shillings.
I: And do you remember how much your rent was? [00:24:43]
AD: The rent … was it £4, because it goes with the size of the room.
SD: £4.
AD: £4, and then you have the gas meter, the electric meter that's separate.
I: And was it furnished? Was it already furnished? [00:25:02]
AD: Yeah, furnished. But I used to … I would say I was there for about a year. After I left that job I get little other job[s] like for three months, three months, because once they think … I just call it slave labor because you work three months and they said that you're not up to scratch, so you have to keep moving on. But, I mean, jobs are easy to get then but after I think a year, I was expecting my first child so I couldn’t work, so then it got harder.
I: What, in terms of looking after the children and not being able to go out, how did it get harder? [00:25:50]
AD: Well, I said my first child. I had my first child in Jamaica. Yeah. So, this would be my second child here. Well, in terms of living in that house … Because I was new to the country and I never really mix a lot with people, so it was difficult for me. The land lady was home with her children and I didn't know she was expecting me to come and sit down and have a chat with her during the day and stuff like that, so I didn't. And I think that annoyed her. So, what she used to do was to switch off the electric during the day and the gas as well. So that is why that heater got so much use because then I had to use it for heating during the day while I was there. So she would turn it back in the evening when everyone else would be near to come home. So in the end we had to leave there as well because she very inaudible[00:27:14]
I: She what? White?
AD: [00:27:17] No, no, oh no. So, you know, we couldn’t stay there anymore, we had to find somewhere else. Then we came to Calderstone Crescent.
I: [Overlapping] What was that like? [00:27:35]
AD: That’s where my first child was born. That was okay because the landlord wasn't living on the premises. He just rented the house. So that was okay. We stayed there for about 4 years. But because, I think it was a family house and he wasn't supposed to be renting, so the inaudible[00:27:59] were found out because almost all, everyone in the building had babies. So you have to go to clinic. So of course they checked and find all these people living there. So he had to let some of us go, so we were one of them. So then I had a … she was about three and then I had a baby about probably 3 months old and we have to go looking for somewhere else again. Oh dear. We did find a flat in Lauriston Road, but that was a real mess. I think it must have been empty for a long time. So, we had a lot of cleaning up to do inaudible[00:28:57]. That's the longest place we stayed … There's a pensioner living underneath but we had to share the toilet. There was no bathroom. So, we had to go through her.
I: How did you wash? [00:29:20]
AD: Well, we -
SD: Public baths
AD: Public bath twice a week. And then, you know, you just have a sponge during …
I: Where were the public baths? [00:29:31]
AD: Hackney, Hackney baths.
I: What were they like? [00:29:35]
AD: They were good. They were pretty good. Pretty good. They were clean. Pretty clean. And you know, once you … cause you couldn't go in and, we were talking about that recently about how they used to operate the bath. Because there's a lady who would come in and fill the tub with hot water. You could, she controlled the hot water, you control the cold water. So the hot water is controlled from outside and you can put water inaudible[00:30:07]. You have a limited time to stay in there as well.
I: And that was a bath.
AD: That was a bath. Yeah, proper bath. But I mean it was clean. The whole place - really clean.
I: Where did you do your washing in the early days? [00:30:23]
AD: Well, washing had to be done in the bathroom or on the landing.
I: And the nappies?
AD: Well, you have to dry them inside your room and the heaters underneath the heat.
I: Well, oh, the heater you've given us. [All laugh].
AD: Yes. Everything was done. I don't think we started going to the laundry where we lived in Lauriston Road, but then they didn't have a … So once it was washed and spin, then you take them home and still dry them. They started getting dry. Most washing was done by hand.
I: Hard work.
AD: Very hard
I: And you weren't able to work at that time? [00:31:30]
AD: No. I stayed home, I would say about 15 years all together bringing the kids up. I did start to work when the third one … he was about 3 months old and I find a good nanny. But when I worked out how much I was paying, you know, it didn't it really work for me to go to work so I just stopped.
[00:32:21] So all this time is private housing where we were looking. Then we went on the council list, waited about three years before we get somewhere. But they always offer you somewhere which is not adequate. So we had to turn two places down. And then we got to a house - bliss! [all laugh] - in Sidworth Street. You know Sidworth Street? You know Mare Street?
I: Yeah
AD: Right, so if you pass Mare Street just on the right hand side there's a little road there called Sidworth Street. So it's just opposite where Iceland is now, just opposite. [We] got a house there. One up one down
I: One up one down.
AD: Yeah, everything belong to us.
I: Have a toilet? [00:33:27]
AD: Yeah outside but [it] wasn't bad at all.
I: At least it was your own.
AD: Yes. Bathroom. And we stayed there … we went there 1971, and we've stayed there for eight years.
I: So you moved a lot in the 60s. You were moving a lot. [00:33:50]
AD: Yeah. Because, I mean, he's got the experience of going knocking on doors and this and that because he had to go and do all these things because I'm home with the kids.
I: Yes. [To Stanley] So you had to go and find somewhere to live. So, were you going to say that you had experience of people turning you away? [00:34:04]
SD: Well, I didn't get much of that because when we were living off Balls Pond Road and we had to move because she was treated very badly because they turned the electricity off and that sort of thing. And I just decided not to go to work one Saturday morning and I walk from Balls Pond Road, and I was on Calderstone Crescent and this woman on the other side of the road called and asked me if I don't know anyone want a room [knows if anyone wants a room]. I said yes I'm looking for one. Inaudible[00:35:00]
I: So that was a good experience.
SD: Yes, it was a good experience. We lived there for a while. As she [Adella] said, the guy was renting the place out and it was a family house. But I had to do the run around because she had to look after the home.
I: But to be in the winter in the day, with no electricity, in the dark … is it dark? [00:35:34]
AD: Sometimes because some of the days are quite dark, yeah.
I: And you couldn't put the kettle … Well, you could put the kettle on, because of the heater, and have a cup of tea. [00:35:47]
AD: Yeah. I mean, it was very distressing. Very distressing. Well, everybody can't be like that. There must be someone who, you know, inaudible[00:36:08]. I wouldn't say … I am a religious person - I don't go to church, but I do believe in God. So, I thought, well, things cannot be like this all the time. Because when we were in Jamaica, you heard about all these people that came before us and the problems they had and everything, but you know, you can't really imagine how it was. So, for me, from what I heard and read, that was really nothing. You know -
I: You'd heard much worse than that? [00:36:44]
AD: I heard - Yeah.
SD: It was America really because we more associate [Cross talk 00:36:52]. But I think the prejudice was a great thing by the Americans as far as we could hear.
AD: I think the prejudice … because I think with the British or English, they're more upfront with it. That's how I look at it. In America although there. because even with the people that was born in America they still have prejudice for them. But I think the British people was more upfront with it. Some of them anyway.
SD: They’re more tolerant
I: And of course we're talking about Hackney. I mean … you know, this is Hackney in the 60s. How different … Has it changed a lot? How different was it? What was it like, then, in the 60s? [00:37:28]
AD: I would say it has changed because there are … it's a multicultural place now. More.
I: Was it in the 60s? [00:37:55]
AD: It was, but not so much.
I: What was the main group of people, apart from white British people? Was it mainly Jamaicans? [00:38:02]
AD: No. Other West Indian Islands, but you wouldn't really know unless you speak to them, to hear the accent. I don't know, I would say it was like Trinidad, Barbados. I can't really remember so much of the African accent, probably in the early 70s, I think it was …
I: Had you been to Trinidad, to those islands before you came? [00:38:38]
AD: No.
I: So this was the first time that you were meeting Trinidadians and people from Barbados. What was that like? [00:38:42]
AD: Well, to hear the accent, it was an eye opener [laughs] because, you know, you're just used to our accent and so, American accent and the English people that lived in Jamaica. And also Syrians because a lot of Syrian people owned all the businesses in Jamaica as well, so. And I've never actually in Jamaica come across another West Indian person
I: So when you came here, who were your friends? [00:39:28]
AD: Didn't have any friends [laughs].
I: Other Jamaicans?
AD: Yeah, to begin with. I mean, I didn't really … Well, he came up to a friend, so he's not somebody that I had known. So I didn't have a friend here. So I made friends. Mainly you make friends with the people that's living on the building that you are, because most of them have children so because of children, you know you get chatting, or if you go to work.
I: Were there times that you felt lonely? [00:40:15]
AD: Oh gosh. Yeah, definitely. Once you finish working on a Friday, when the way it worked, when you work, you know you come out. If you have friends then you have … people used to have parties in the house because there was no clubs for you to go to. I mean, that was nice.
I: Were they those famous Jamaican blues parties? [00:40:37]
AD: Actually I didn't go to one of those [laughs]. It's just like, you know, you meet people at work and so you meet on weekends. This, you know … and that person might bring another friend. So,
I: What did you … What was important to you to keep from Jamaica, from your life in Jamaica? What did you keep hold of when you were in this country? [00:41:01]
AD: Memories, your family and that hoping that one day you go back. Because as Stan said, all West Indian people came here for five years because … we came here to work. And then, you know, five years of work then you go back home. But it didn’t work that way. We’re spending 45 years here [all laugh].
I: Have you been back? [00:41:54]
AD: Oh yeah. Yes.
I: When did you first go back?
AD: I went back 13 years after because, of course, you know, you have the children and only one person working. My mother died so I had to go. That was 13 years after. And there was a big change. I don't know if it was change, but because I've not left Jamaica before until I came here. So 13 years after everything, everywhere looked different
Interviewer (I): So, it's July the 4th, 2008. I'm at Hackney Museum. Violet. And we are recording Stanley and Adella. Can you tell me your surnames, please? [00:00:00]
Stanley Dormer (SD): Dormer
I: Dormer. Stanley, can I ask you first when you were born? [00:00:17]
SD: The 27th of the 2nd, 1936.
I: And where was that? [00:00:25]
SD: That is in Jamaica, in Parish Portland. That's the east end of the Island.
I: And had your parents lived there? [00:00:34]
SD: Yes.
I: For some time? [00:00:36]
SD: Yes
I: And Adela? [00:00:38]
Adella Dormer (AD): I was born on the 21st of March 1943, Parish Portland, in Jamaica.
I: And did you both meet in Jamaica? [00:00:53]
Both. Yes.
I: When did you meet? [long pause] And how did you meet? [00:00:57]
AD: When I first met Stan I used to go to learn dress making and during the day my friend and I, we saw these two guys at the Roden, but actually she knew them I didn't, and she actually called his name. So that same evening I was walking to go into town and he was riding, coming behind me and said something cheeky [laughs] and I turned around to, you know, tell him off and that's how it started. He started coming every evening [everyone laughs]. I’d say that was about 1958 … 57?
SD: 58.
I: When did you get married? [00:02:06]
AD: We got married 1964 here in England.
I: Oh, right, yes. So, just to go back to Jamaica again, what profession were your parents? [00:02:10]
SD: My dad was a building contractor and my mum was a housewife.
I: And you, what was your work? [00:02:27]
SD: Well, I was doing signing writing and then I … a friend of mine was doing plumbing. So I switched to plumbing and then I came to England
I: So you trained as a plumber in Jamaica?
SD: Yes. Not domestic. It was just commercial
I: And Adella you said you were a sewer - a seamstress.
AD: Yeah. My dad was a farmer and my mum was a housewife. So I came here doing the same thing.
I: So you didn't come here together. You came here independently of each other. And why did you decide to come to this country? [Cross talk] Adella. [00:03:15]
AD: Well, I didn't have any … I didn't know … Well, you don't know what your future's going to be, so. I mean, after I met Stan, he already … he got to come here inaudible[00:03:45].
I: So you came because you wanted to be with Stan? [00:03:48]
AD: Yeah.
I: [To Stan] And what were your reasons for leaving Jamaica and coming here? [00:03:52]
SD: Well what I wanted was to improve on the domestic plumbing that I was doing. So I decided to spend about five years. But after six months and she came here. And you have children, and you get used to the system inaudible[00:04:18]
I: It's hard to go home again?
SD: Yes.
AD: At that time.
SD: At that time.
I: Stanley, you came first before Adella. How did you travel? [00:04:29]
SD: I came by airplane. It was an interesting thing [laughs].
I: Tell me.
SD: Well, we didn't have any idea about the snow or anything that is cold.
I: So, you arrived in the winter?
SD: Yes.
I: And what were your first impressions as you got off the plane? [00:04:51]
SD: Well, it was very cold, but I didn't know that the houses were houses because they look like a factory [with] chimney pots in them. Thought they were factories
I: Because your houses in Jamaica are different?
SD: Yes. Yes. Just like we call ordinary town houses, you don't have any chimney because we don't have any winter.
I: So the chimneys that was your first … you thought there were factories?
SD: Yes.
I: And there was snow on the ground when you arrived?
SD: Yes, it was.
I: And what were you wearing? [00:05:37]
SD: Well, it was just an ordinary pair of shoes and we didn't have any winter coat or anything. We didn't know what we were expecting anyway.
I: Nobody had told you or warned you?
SD: Well, they say it's winter. I was told that it would be the coldest winter for 35 years. But I know that I'm coming and I had no idea what winter was. You see, it's just like a shot in the dark really. So when I came here, there was no turning back anywhere.
I: So how did you feel? [00:06:17]
SD: You feel like you want to turn back and go, but you could never do that.
I: So where did - you when you first arrived, where did you first live? [00:06:29]
SD: I was living in Battersea.
I: What was that like?
SD: It wasn't very good because it's a lot, you have to live in one room. So, it was a bit crowded.
I: How many in one?
SD: Well, it's about four. And of course we didn't have any experience of anything at all. And I was, as I said before, the people that own the property, they were out at work because they were here a long time before us. And all the pipes were frozen, no water. And we just had to get some snow, put in the pan, put it on the fire, melt it, and cook the food. So we had to improvise really [laughs].
I: You must have thought you'd come to some terrible freezing place.
SD: I thought that was whatever I let myself think.
I: Cold, you felt cold.
SD: Yes, very very cold. And at the time I didn't realize because they say it is cold. So I was thinking of putting on a lot of socks and keep your feet warm. But that was a very bad thing to do because it was too hot. Then your children … It was very bad [laughs].
I: And did you have work to come to? [00:08:35]
SD: No, I didn't have work to come to. I think at that time you could get work very easily. So I didn't have any problem getting work
I: As a plumber?
SD: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I spent about five weeks in Battersea and then I came to Hackney, Newington Green. And from there I start to work. No problem at all getting a job. But the funny thing was, I wanted was to continue with my sign writing and artist. I used to mix colors as well and engrave and head stones - I used to do that as well. So I wanted to do the same thing. But I phone up a few places and one place that I phone up, which was very funny, It was interesting. When I phoned, the guy said to me, ‘Yes, we have a vacancy, and I gather from your voice,’ he said, ‘that you're a West Indian.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ And he said, ‘It's a small firm and we don't really take West Indians.’ So I just couldn't believe it. But I admire him anyway because he was honest to tell me and don't wait until I come to the factory, then he say ‘oh you can’t get the job’. So I was upset but I think he was honest.
I: And did you experience other forms of racism? [00:10:34]
SD: Yes. If I decided to go into the building trade and plumbing. And what I found out is sometimes you'll go to the job and you'll enter the gates and you'll ask if there's any vacancy and someone will be there like somebody digging the ground or just standing there and they'll say no vacancy and those people, they are not working in the office. They have no idea what is going on in the office and they say no vacancy. So after a while you understand and you pass them and go into the office. That was it - learning.
I: So when you went into the office then you were more likely to get work. [00:11:28]
SD: Yes. Yes.
I: Was that a shock to you? [00:11:38]
SD: It wasn't a shock because from the time I was told that they didn't employ West Indian in this factory, I understand.
I: But when you were back in Jamaica, did it ever cross your mind that kind of thing would happen? [00:12:00]
SD: No, I think it would happen in America, but not in England.
I: Shall I go to Adella now and then we'll come back. So six months you were in Jamaica wanting to come and meet up with Stanley again. So how did you come to this? How did you travel? [00:12:18]
AD: By plane as well. It was kind of a nice experience but a bit I would say scary because it was night, you know, you couldn't - you looked through the window, you couldn't see anything if it was dark. And I think there was a lot of I don't know if you could say they were scared people, but everybody was reading their Bible [laughs]
I: Everybody on the plane?
AD: Almost everybody was reading their Bible, you know, so.
I: Jamaicans?
AD: Yeah, because it was from Jamaica, so they're all Jamaicans. We made one stop in New Foundland and we could get out and walk a little bit, but it was freezing. It was really, really cold. But that was in June, so here would be like the start of summer. I think the plane stopped for probably about two hours. So then we got back and when we landed it was still night. And I'm not sure if the flight was cancelled, but I think where Stan should have met me, he couldn't because the plane was transferred to Stanstead instead of landing at Heathrow., I think it was Heathrow - it landed at Stansted. So I mean, I was really worried. I was kind of feeling lost because I mean it's a strange place. There was this one nice young man, I think he had traveled before and you know he actually came with me from Stanstead, can't remember which train station it was, to where I'm supposed to meet Stan and you know actually found him and said that I was there. But I mean I couldn't see anything then because that was night, but in the morning you know that was still stranger because the houses there, you're not used to those kind of houses because they're not so close to each other in Jamaica they’re more like if you're living outside London and they’re separate, you got land and everything around you, so that was a bit strange. People are okay because we're used to white people in Jamaica, so there's no inaudible[00:15:10]
I: What was the house like? This was in Newington Green? [00:15:13]
AD: No, but then we had moved to just off Balls Pond Road. Living in … that would be N1 anyway, it was just off Balls Pond road.
I: What sort of accommodation? Well, it's just a room. The person who owns the house lives downstairs and then there's about five other tenants, each have a room. There was cooker on the first floor for everybody else. Just one bathroom. [00:15:35]
I: One bathroom for how many people?
AD: Yeah. Even the house owner as well. So everybody - and she had three children [laughs]. So in all there were four, four, five of them [children], about 10 people living in that house. So we had one bathroom.
I: And the cooking?
AD: The cooking facility was on the first floor landing. So the people from upstairs would come down and cook as well.
I: So how did you manage that with everybody wanting to cook at once? [00:16:28]
AD: Ah well, you have just to kind of figure out … because those from up the top floor, they work at night. And if you work during the day, you know you just have to figure things out to get around that. Hence we started cooking on the heater [laughs].
I: Because what kind of stove was on the landing? [00:16:56]
AD: Gas stove, a gas stove.
I: And was there a fridge? [00:17:01]
AD: Oh no, no fridge. Nothing like that.
I: Just a gas stove.
AD: Just a gas stove. There's …
I: And you kept all your pots and pans and things in your room.
AD: Everything.
I: And your food?
AD: Everything.
I: How did you keep your food fresh? [00:17:19]
AD: Well, you shop from day to day. You shop every day. Things like margarine, you keep that in a container. Everything else you have to go out and get it. I mean, I didn't … it took me a while to get a job.
I: Just to go back before you turn about the job, tell us about cooking on the heater. [00:17:43]
AD: Okay. Well, I realized that, you know, we were kind of getting in each other's way to, you know, using the stove or otherwise you'd have to precook your meal from the day - evening - before and then you could warm it up. So before I started to work, because we used to use it for the kettle, I just thought, well if you can use it for the kettle you cook on it as well. So we just started cooking on it and it made life a bit, much more easier.
I: What kind of things did you cook? [00:18:25]
AD: Oh [laughs] traditional rice and peas. Well, we cook the peas on the gas cooker because that used to be like a Sunday dinner. So, it be rice and peas and chicken. So, I would cook the peas Saturday night on the gas cooker and then, because the rice only needs not a lot of cooking, so you could do that Sunday morning. You do the chicken there as well, finish it up on the -
I: On the heat, so you always had it hot?
AD: Yes, yes.
I: And were you warm enough? Did it give you enough heat? [00:19:04]
AD: We had hot water bottles [laughs] because you couldn't actually burn it all night because of the smell. So, we had water bottles. We have to have long sleeve night dresses. Night dress. Well, he's got pajamas. You wear socks.
I: Did you have to buy a lot more clothes when you came over here? [00:19:30]
AD: Oh, yeah, yeah. Warm clothes in the winter, yeah. I mean, I came in June, which was kind of like the sort of summer, so it wasn't too bad. It was sunny, but still chilly, well, cold. But yeah, we had to buy a lot of clothes - boots, vests, never wore vests [laughs].
I: What did you think? [00:19:56]
AD: Well, when the winter did come, I just felt like going back [laughs]. It was very … I cried and I think a lot of people did cry because, you know, you're not expecting that. I mean, you see a picture postcard of the winter, but you know, it's still not … it's not the feeling. It's just … Once you spend a couple winters, then you just kind of get used to it and it's hard work. It's a good experience after a while, but it was hard.
[00:20:45] And regarding jobs, well, I probably had more refusal than he had because, well, he's a professional person whereas I'm just a seamstress. Although there was a lot of that going on but because you're from the West Indies and they're going to ask you the last place that you work you have to say the West Indies. So that wasn't recognised at all. So they would take you but at a lower rate. So you have to work for three or six months to prove yourself.
But my first job it was, one of the ladies that live on the premises used to work in Old Street and she got me my first job which was good. But -
I: What was it doing? [00:21:46]
AD: It was making jackets - the whole rag trade. So they made mens’ and ladies’ clothes. And I was lucky because they were prepared to teach me the whole trade because the foreman said to me, you know, that it looks like I'm eager to learn and somebody who would learn. So he was prepared to keep me. But I had, strangely, I had prejudice from my own color. I couldn't believe that.
I: Why is that? [00:22:25]
AD: I don't know. I used to work with four older people. So I was the youngest person there, I didn't really mind. And I was learning the trade, you know, from bottom up. So if a coat is made, you have to … they would mark the hem. So I mark the hem and they show me how to hem it and stuff. The last person to show me was a West Indian lady and I don't know for some reason she really resented me and I had to leave the job. Because … you know when you're young and they have a saying to say you're hotheaded. So I just couldn't take it because you don't want to go into work and feel unhappy, work place should be a happy place and she just find a lot of faults all the time. Where the other three ladies never did because the … you know, I mentioned it to the, what we call, the foreman then and I said, ‘no she's fine,’ I mean if there was a problem they would they would have said. But I had to leave in the end. But I got to find out that she had a niece who was coming up and she wanted this space for her niece because she was coming up to do nursing. But she wasn't the right age, she had about another year to reach 18 at the time. But I mean, it was a good job. When I went back -
I: Do you remember how much you got paid? [00:24:06]
AD: Seven shillings [laughs]. Seven shillings a week is a lot! [All laugh] How much is that now? Seven shillings, that's …
I: Less than 50 pence.
AD: [Overlapping chatter] I mean in 1962. That was quite good because I mean things were cheap. Your shopping would have probably cost you, for two people, about five shillings.
I: And do you remember how much your rent was? [00:24:43]
AD: The rent … was it £4, because it goes with the size of the room.
SD: £4.
AD: £4, and then you have the gas meter, the electric meter that's separate.
I: And was it furnished? Was it already furnished? [00:25:02]
AD: Yeah, furnished. But I used to … I would say I was there for about a year. After I left that job I get little other job[s] like for three months, three months, because once they think … I just call it slave labor because you work three months and they said that you're not up to scratch, so you have to keep moving on. But, I mean, jobs are easy to get then but after I think a year, I was expecting my first child so I couldn’t work, so then it got harder.
I: What, in terms of looking after the children and not being able to go out, how did it get harder? [00:25:50]
AD: Well, I said my first child. I had my first child in Jamaica. Yeah. So, this would be my second child here. Well, in terms of living in that house … Because I was new to the country and I never really mix a lot with people, so it was difficult for me. The land lady was home with her children and I didn't know she was expecting me to come and sit down and have a chat with her during the day and stuff like that, so I didn't. And I think that annoyed her. So, what she used to do was to switch off the electric during the day and the gas as well. So that is why that heater got so much use because then I had to use it for heating during the day while I was there. So she would turn it back in the evening when everyone else would be near to come home. So in the end we had to leave there as well because she very inaudible[00:27:14]
I: She what? White?
AD: [00:27:17] No, no, oh no. So, you know, we couldn’t stay there anymore, we had to find somewhere else. Then we came to Calderstone Crescent.
I: [Overlapping] What was that like? [00:27:35]
AD: That’s where my first child was born. That was okay because the landlord wasn't living on the premises. He just rented the house. So that was okay. We stayed there for about 4 years. But because, I think it was a family house and he wasn't supposed to be renting, so the inaudible[00:27:59] were found out because almost all, everyone in the building had babies. So you have to go to clinic. So of course they checked and find all these people living there. So he had to let some of us go, so we were one of them. So then I had a … she was about three and then I had a baby about probably 3 months old and we have to go looking for somewhere else again. Oh dear. We did find a flat in Lauriston Road, but that was a real mess. I think it must have been empty for a long time. So, we had a lot of cleaning up to do inaudible[00:28:57]. That's the longest place we stayed … There's a pensioner living underneath but we had to share the toilet. There was no bathroom. So, we had to go through her.
I: How did you wash? [00:29:20]
AD: Well, we -
SD: Public baths
AD: Public bath twice a week. And then, you know, you just have a sponge during …
I: Where were the public baths? [00:29:31]
AD: Hackney, Hackney baths.
I: What were they like? [00:29:35]
AD: They were good. They were pretty good. Pretty good. They were clean. Pretty clean. And you know, once you … cause you couldn't go in and, we were talking about that recently about how they used to operate the bath. Because there's a lady who would come in and fill the tub with hot water. You could, she controlled the hot water, you control the cold water. So the hot water is controlled from outside and you can put water inaudible[00:30:07]. You have a limited time to stay in there as well.
I: And that was a bath.
AD: That was a bath. Yeah, proper bath. But I mean it was clean. The whole place - really clean.
I: Where did you do your washing in the early days? [00:30:23]
AD: Well, washing had to be done in the bathroom or on the landing.
I: And the nappies?
AD: Well, you have to dry them inside your room and the heaters underneath the heat.
I: Well, oh, the heater you've given us. [All laugh].
AD: Yes. Everything was done. I don't think we started going to the laundry where we lived in Lauriston Road, but then they didn't have a … So once it was washed and spin, then you take them home and still dry them. They started getting dry. Most washing was done by hand.
I: Hard work.
AD: Very hard
I: And you weren't able to work at that time? [00:31:30]
AD: No. I stayed home, I would say about 15 years all together bringing the kids up. I did start to work when the third one … he was about 3 months old and I find a good nanny. But when I worked out how much I was paying, you know, it didn't it really work for me to go to work so I just stopped.
[00:32:21] So all this time is private housing where we were looking. Then we went on the council list, waited about three years before we get somewhere. But they always offer you somewhere which is not adequate. So we had to turn two places down. And then we got to a house - bliss! [all laugh] - in Sidworth Street. You know Sidworth Street? You know Mare Street?
I: Yeah
AD: Right, so if you pass Mare Street just on the right hand side there's a little road there called Sidworth Street. So it's just opposite where Iceland is now, just opposite. [We] got a house there. One up one down
I: One up one down.
AD: Yeah, everything belong to us.
I: Have a toilet? [00:33:27]
AD: Yeah outside but [it] wasn't bad at all.
I: At least it was your own.
AD: Yes. Bathroom. And we stayed there … we went there 1971, and we've stayed there for eight years.
I: So you moved a lot in the 60s. You were moving a lot. [00:33:50]
AD: Yeah. Because, I mean, he's got the experience of going knocking on doors and this and that because he had to go and do all these things because I'm home with the kids.
I: Yes. [To Stanley] So you had to go and find somewhere to live. So, were you going to say that you had experience of people turning you away? [00:34:04]
SD: Well, I didn't get much of that because when we were living off Balls Pond Road and we had to move because she was treated very badly because they turned the electricity off and that sort of thing. And I just decided not to go to work one Saturday morning and I walk from Balls Pond Road, and I was on Calderstone Crescent and this woman on the other side of the road called and asked me if I don't know anyone want a room [knows if anyone wants a room]. I said yes I'm looking for one. Inaudible[00:35:00]
I: So that was a good experience.
SD: Yes, it was a good experience. We lived there for a while. As she [Adella] said, the guy was renting the place out and it was a family house. But I had to do the run around because she had to look after the home.
I: But to be in the winter in the day, with no electricity, in the dark … is it dark? [00:35:34]
AD: Sometimes because some of the days are quite dark, yeah.
I: And you couldn't put the kettle … Well, you could put the kettle on, because of the heater, and have a cup of tea. [00:35:47]
AD: Yeah. I mean, it was very distressing. Very distressing. Well, everybody can't be like that. There must be someone who, you know, inaudible[00:36:08]. I wouldn't say … I am a religious person - I don't go to church, but I do believe in God. So, I thought, well, things cannot be like this all the time. Because when we were in Jamaica, you heard about all these people that came before us and the problems they had and everything, but you know, you can't really imagine how it was. So, for me, from what I heard and read, that was really nothing. You know -
I: You'd heard much worse than that? [00:36:44]
AD: I heard - Yeah.
SD: It was America really because we more associate [Cross talk 00:36:52]. But I think the prejudice was a great thing by the Americans as far as we could hear.
AD: I think the prejudice … because I think with the British or English, they're more upfront with it. That's how I look at it. In America although there. because even with the people that was born in America they still have prejudice for them. But I think the British people was more upfront with it. Some of them anyway.
SD: They’re more tolerant
I: And of course we're talking about Hackney. I mean … you know, this is Hackney in the 60s. How different … Has it changed a lot? How different was it? What was it like, then, in the 60s? [00:37:28]
AD: I would say it has changed because there are … it's a multicultural place now. More.
I: Was it in the 60s? [00:37:55]
AD: It was, but not so much.
I: What was the main group of people, apart from white British people? Was it mainly Jamaicans? [00:38:02]
AD: No. Other West Indian Islands, but you wouldn't really know unless you speak to them, to hear the accent. I don't know, I would say it was like Trinidad, Barbados. I can't really remember so much of the African accent, probably in the early 70s, I think it was …
I: Had you been to Trinidad, to those islands before you came? [00:38:38]
AD: No.
I: So this was the first time that you were meeting Trinidadians and people from Barbados. What was that like? [00:38:42]
AD: Well, to hear the accent, it was an eye opener [laughs] because, you know, you're just used to our accent and so, American accent and the English people that lived in Jamaica. And also Syrians because a lot of Syrian people owned all the businesses in Jamaica as well, so. And I've never actually in Jamaica come across another West Indian person
I: So when you came here, who were your friends? [00:39:28]
AD: Didn't have any friends [laughs].
I: Other Jamaicans?
AD: Yeah, to begin with. I mean, I didn't really … Well, he came up to a friend, so he's not somebody that I had known. So I didn't have a friend here. So I made friends. Mainly you make friends with the people that's living on the building that you are, because most of them have children so because of children, you know you get chatting, or if you go to work.
I: Were there times that you felt lonely? [00:40:15]
AD: Oh gosh. Yeah, definitely. Once you finish working on a Friday, when the way it worked, when you work, you know you come out. If you have friends then you have … people used to have parties in the house because there was no clubs for you to go to. I mean, that was nice.
I: Were they those famous Jamaican blues parties? [00:40:37]
AD: Actually I didn't go to one of those [laughs]. It's just like, you know, you meet people at work and so you meet on weekends. This, you know … and that person might bring another friend. So,
I: What did you … What was important to you to keep from Jamaica, from your life in Jamaica? What did you keep hold of when you were in this country? [00:41:01]
AD: Memories, your family and that hoping that one day you go back. Because as Stan said, all West Indian people came here for five years because … we came here to work. And then, you know, five years of work then you go back home. But it didn’t work that way. We’re spending 45 years here [all laugh].
I: Have you been back? [00:41:54]
AD: Oh yeah. Yes.
I: When did you first go back?
AD: I went back 13 years after because, of course, you know, you have the children and only one person working. My mother died so I had to go. That was 13 years after. And there was a big change. I don't know if it was change, but because I've not left Jamaica before until I came here. So 13 years after everything, everywhere looked different
