Oral History Interview - Charlotte Harris and Paul McMullen

Audio file

2001

2026.147

Audio recording (.wav) of an oral history interview with Charlotte Harris and Paul McMullen, interviewed by Alex Sidney. Charlotte and Paul talk about their experiences living in Stoke Newington. Total length - 1 hour, 15 minutes, 9 seconds.

[00:00:24] Introduction to Charlotte and Paul; where they grew up and their parents

[00:03:46] Their experiences at school, favourite subjects

[00:06:23] Charlotte’s childhood; main hobbies and interests, importance of socializing while growing up

[00:08:35] Paul’s childhood; main hobby of playing in rock bands as a teenager

[00:10:17] Their aims and ambitions as teenagers for adulthood

[00:12:55] Their experiences in university; Paul studying drama as Hull, Charlotte studying politics and religion at Manchester

[00:14:58] Paul taking a year out during university to play in his rock band

[00:15:50] Their first jobs after university; Charlotte working in sales, Paul working for British Telecom and then in a rock band

[00:19:16] Paul’s journey to working at The Guardian in London

[00:21:16] Charlotte and Paul meet while working at The Guardian

[00:22:17] Current careers and what interest them about them

[00:26:20] Charlotte’s career; comfortability with current job, its importance and trying to split work with social life

[00:29:53] Paul’s career; lacking vocational sense for his job, commitment to working hard

[00:31:41] Paul studying for a masters in Journalism while working six days a week, work life spilling over into personal life

[00:33:15] Charlotte moving to Stoke Newington and her impressions of the area

[00:36:05] Paul moving from Highbury to Stoke Newington and moving in with Charlotte and her friends

[00:37:21] Benefits and downsides of living in Stoke Newington; friendly community, what the council can do to improve the state of the area

[00:40:44] Friendships they have formed in the local area

[00:42:30] Stereotypical Stoke Newington couples; ways they do and don’t fit into that archetype

[00:46:02] Their view on property prices in Stoke Newington

[00:48:12] Eating out and their favourite restaurants in the local area

[00:49:35] Their lack of interest in material possessions

[00:50:38] Travelling as a hobby; twice a year, for recharging their batteries

[00:54:37] Interest in European beers and foreign wine

[00:55:25] Their view on third world debt crisis and the campaigns for it

[00:58:40] Paul’s interest in jazz music, visiting local jazz club in Stoke Newington

[01:00:15] Their love of the Stoke Newington festival and the importance of it in bringing the community together

[01:05:10] How they see Stoke Newington developing over the next 5-10 years

[01:08:39] Negative view on how the area might change; local businesses getting priced out, losing the current culture

[01:10:51] How they see their lives progressing over the next few years; whether they will still be living in London, no major life plan yet

Stoke Newington (Place)

Photo credit - copyright Sarah Ainslie.

No

Interview with Charlotte Harris and Paul McMullen

Interviewer Alex Sidney - 17 July 2001

Interviewer (I): First of all, could you tell me your date and place of birth? [00:00:24]

Charlotte Harris (CH): I was born on 21st February 1970 in Solihull in the West Midlands.

Paul McMullen (PM): I was born on 3rd November 1967 in Coventry.


I: Charlotte, could you say a couple of things about your mum and dad and your siblings if you have any? [00:00:58]

CH: Mum and dad, middle class. Dad worked for the BBC. Mum was a housewife until we grew up and then she went to work herself and went into PR. I have a brother who’s older, who’s 33 and he works in the hotel industry. That’s about it, really.


I: What sort of people were your parents? [00:01:29]

CH: Outgoing, lively, social climbers, very much people of the community. Like my dad is Chairman of the Parish Council. They have been on lots of charity issues, working for the BBC, he was the manager of Radio Derby. And he has been manager of radio stations so he was always part of the community and very much involved with what was going on in the local community. And mum was always sort of heavily involved in local societies and NSPCC and that sort of thing. So we moved around quite a lot as kids as well because of dad's work. So we have always been as a family very sociable and very outgoing and very much taking life as it comes, sort of thing.


I: [To Paul] What about yours? [00:02:19]

PM: Okay, Mum and dad split up when I was three so I have a step mum and a step dad. Mum and my stepfather lived in a village in Warwickshire called Long Etchington, a rural upbringing. Mum for many years stayed at home to look after the family and has recently gone back to academia and has got a degree and is now studying for an MPhil and my stepfather is a builder, runs a small building firm. Dad lives down in Wales, involved in the catering business, quite ambitious, pretty hard worker and always wanting to get on and my step mum is Audrey who is very nice and she lives down in Wales with Dad.


I: And who did you live with? [00:03:09]

PM: I lived with mum in Long Etchington.


I: You always lived there? [00:03:14]

PM: Yeah, I was in Coventry for about the first three years and Warwickshire after that. So their involvement in the local community was very much focused around the pub. Although to be fair to her, she did start the "Save Long Etchington" movement or SLIM as it was known at the time.


I: [laughter] What did that involve? [00:03:31]

PM: There was some housing scheme that mum didn't really agree with because it was going to knock down some lovely old buildings. So, she got political. [laughter]


I: Charlotte, how did you find school, did you enjoy it? [00:03:46]

CH: Loved it. Well because I moved around, I probably went to about six schools or something from primary through to secondary and I think by moving around it really helped me in terms of school because I got used to it. The worst school I had was going to an all girls school which I did when we lived in Middlesbrough, which I absolutely loathed with a passion. And when we moved to Derby that was when I was absolutely adamant that I was not going to go to an all girls school again. And I really then got into my element.

I liked learning. I liked being with other people. I just had a good time, really. And sort of certainly in the last school I was in I got quite involved in it, I became like the school prefect- no, school governor. I was on the Board of Governors and I got quite involved in that. So I really enjoyed school and had some great teachers. I went to really good schools as well. My parents were very conscious of where we moved to, it was always in a good catchment area. So that helped really.


I: What sort of things did you do at school, what were your favourite subjects? [00:04:59]

CH: History, Religion, English Literature, those were sort of my main ones. Very arty.


I: How about you Paul, are you an arty person? [00:05:14]

PM: Yes I am, I think. I went to a comprehensive school in Leamington which was run by this really liberal head teacher. He basically didn't believe in having rules. So there was no uniforms. Teachers were all on first name terms. It was all really relaxed and if you got caught scrapping or stealing obviously that was it, you were out. But you know, it was very kind of creative in its approach to teaching. An enormous amount of its budget went on the arts. So art, drama and music, which the science teachers always used to get fed up about. So low and behold I ended up doing drama and art for my 'A' levels. It was all good though, it was good fun, it was really a good laugh.


I: That kind of system worked for you? [00:06:00]

FM. Yeah I think so. I mean, I don't know, perhaps if it had been more disciplined or more of a traditional school I might have, you know, done more serious subjects. But at the time I wasn't going to listen to that, I was having far too much fun in school plays.


I: Charlotte, outside of school what were your main interests as a child? [00:06:23]

CH: Going out. I actually worked on Saturday in WHSmiths and I absolutely loved that. I used to really enjoy working, which I still do and I think that built in me a very strong work ethic and I really enjoy working. And other than that was going on holidays, socialising with friends, going down the pub, reading. I have never really had many active hobbies. I’m not what one might call a sports person of any description. So they have all been much more socialising and chatting and telly and those sort of things.


I: Right, and when you were younger that was the same? [00:07:09]

CH: Yes always the same, always loved the telly, absolute telly addict. Been a telly addict all my life. And I’m now proud to come out and say it. So yes, and reading, I love reading. I sort of potter occasionally and try and do creative things like a bit of decorating or I have done some pot decorating in my time and mosaics and things like that. I like creative things, but I’m not particularly good at being creative. So I like watching and looking at them. But I suppose really over most recent years our big thing is travelling. We go on lots of holidays and really go exploring and go on adventure holidays rather than a two weeks package in Corfu.


I: When you were younger and moving around, obviously you said socializing is important, so did you make a real effort to get to know people as quickly as possible? [00:07:52]

CH: Absolutely yes. I first moved when I was ten and then I moved again when I was thirteen, which are quite difficult times for moving and when I moved to Middlesborough I went to two different schools as well so that was quite strange. So it just got to the point where you just have to go and talk to people and just not be afraid. And mum and dad were very, very supportive and really good to us and that sort of stuff as well. And they were very sociable, we used to see a lot of their friends and that sort of stuff.

[00:08:35] PM: I used to do, well as I mentioned I used to do a lot of school plays. So there was lots of after school drama stuff. But I used to be in loads of bands as well, I was a drummer for ages. So all the way through school I was in a rock band and was going to make it big but it didn't quite turn out like that.


I: What sort of bands were they? [00:08:56]

PM: Pretty terrible bands normally, to be honest. The first one I was in was when we were about thirteen, so we could barely play a note. But school seemed to think we were still good enough to play in front of a whole crowd of our class mates which was embarrassing. But yes we did loads all the way through to 'A' levels. We were in bands all the time. So it was brilliant, great fun.


I: Any names? [00:09:21]

PM: God, I’m trying to think. I mean I think the very first one was The Bureaucrats, which was a fairly sad name. One gig, we used to do these things called The Extravaganzas at school. So one hall would be a load of large bands, another hall would be disco, another hall disco, another hall films and stuff and I believe on the bill we actually thought it would be hilarious to call ourselves The Fifteen Minute Interval which was fairly tragic. What else, we were called the Licking Sticks at one point. Dimension Five, very eighties, I mean there were loads of them. Big Bang Mouse, that was good. Crucifixion Makes Me Cross. That was another one [laughter]. You can get to see why we probably never got anywhere can't you?


I: Moving on into your early adulthood, because I think you were sort of moving in that direction anyway. I think probably the best way to do it, until we actually talk about you meeting and so on, and then if we carry on in this format, do you want to have a rest and have a go at being second or? [00:10:17]

CH: Yeah, you can carry on if you like.

I: We’ll take it in turns for each section. Paul, what would you say, as a pubescent teenager, your aims and ambitions were for adulthood? [00:10:41]

PM: I wanted to be a star. I was well into me drama. I thought I was going to be a hot shot actor. It was that and it was picking up girls, pretty much the size of it.

CH: Well I remember getting my job at WHSmith because I told the employer that I was going to be the next Prime Minister or a future Prime Minister and that at one point was going to be my major goal. It won't ever happen and I never want it to happen. But that’s what I wanted at the time. I thought I was quite political and I thought it would be great to be PM. But over and above that, nothing really. At one point I thought I might go into law, but hit my A levels and realised I wasn't going to get the grades or really the inclination. But those were only really the sort of aspirations I had.


I: Paul, you’ve partially answered it, what were your priorities as a teenager for the here and now? [00:11:44]

PM: Just going out and having a great time, frankly. I mean I mentioned my step dad was a builder so I used to work with him during the holidays to earn a bit of cash. But it was mostly going out after school, going out at weekends in Leamington with my mates, having a great time.

CH: Pretty much. I mean, I think really, Paul probably was the same, we had quite sheltered upbringings really you know I lived in Derby, sort of a nice quaint village we lived in and went to a good middle class school etc. And until I went to university I didn't know what a bill was. It was really nice and easy, really. And my priorities were going out, getting drunk and picking up boys. Working on a Saturday making lots of money to go out and buy clothes to go out that night. So that was pretty much the sum of it [Laughter]

I: That sounds fairly similar to mine, my priorities as well [Laughter]. Am I right in thinking that you guys went to university? [00:12:55]

Both. Yes

I: Paul, where did you go, why did you go there and what did you do and why did you do it? [00:13:00]

PM: Well I went to Hull to do drama. The reason I chose there was it was one of about three courses that’s really good. The other ones were in Manchester and Exeter. I didn't get into Manchester, I didn't like Exeter at the interview andI knew a couple of people at Hull so that was my mind made up, really. It was good.

CH: I went to Manchester and I read politics and religion, because it was the two subjects I really liked and it was the only place in the whole UK that actually did it as a joint honours course rather than being a combined studies course. The other options I was going to do were going to be things like politics and history or politics and economics, something like that. Also I went to a number of campuses and universities and I just loved Manchester, it had a really good feel about it and it was 1988 that I went there so it was just when Manchester was really booming as a city and it had a really energetic feeling. And one thing I wanted to do was go to a big city and I wanted to go to a university that wasn't a campus university. I wanted to go somewhere that was in the city and had lots of life. And Manchester fitted the bill.


I: So that met your expectations, did it work for you, Paul? [00:14:22]

PM: Yes it was great, I mean it’s a fun place, Hull, because it’s so out on a limb. But it’s kind of like a massive village in a way. It has got a strong community. But as a student it was dirt cheap. And I think when you’re a student it doesn't matter where you are. If you’re with a bunch of really good friends then you can enjoy anywhere. But Hull I thought was fab. Really great bars, nice clubs, it was great fun.


I: Did either of you take a year out? [00:14:58]

PM: I did

I: What did you do? [00:15:01]

PM: I came down to London to play in a band with some guys that I had been with all the way through school.

I: You must have been alright then? [laughter] [00:15:09]

PM: We were okay actually, we were getting better and I got hauled off to university.


I: You didn’t? [00:15:18]

CH: No, before or after.


I: Did you take a year out after as well? [00:15:21]

PM: Well it depends what you classify as a year out. I came straight back to London to play with the band again. I did actually get a job.


I: So neither of you went off travelling [crosstalk] [00:15:33]

PM: No


I: Final question, this is perhaps a little bit leading but forgive me. Did you do the milk round at all? [00:15:41]

Both. No.


I: Charlotte, moving onto proper adulthood. What was your first proper job? [00:15:50]

CH: First proper job was working for the Manchester evening news in their sales department, selling classified advertising space. And I was on what was known as reception which basically meant that I would just have J Public phone up and say - I want to sell my car or house or whatever and I was targeted to sell them an advert and get them to book in for as many nights as possible. And I would type it onto the system there and then and put it straight into the paper for the next day. That was my first job.


I: Did you enjoy it? [00:16:27]

CH: I actually really, really loved it. I was a bit stupid really and thought I was just going to go along and have a Saturday job of sort of, I thought I was going to stand on street corners selling the Manchester Evening News. I didn't really know what I was going for and I really enjoyed it for a number of reasons. One I had never really done any sales apart from the odd bits as a sales assistant in a shop. And I was surprised by how much I liked it, I was surprised by how much I liked targets and how much I liked beating targets and you know doing better all the time. I really liked the fact that I was surrounded by really young people and everyone was my same age and it was a big tele-sales floor. But I think what I really liked most about it was I got a job so quickly, I managed to get it in September and graduated in July, mid recession. So I was delighted to get a job and it was really well paid with commission so quickly so it really meant that I landed on my feet really quickly. And I always thought it was gonna be a short term gap, it would be something I would do to fill in the gaps and low and behold I have been doing pretty much similar thing now for twelve years, whatever it is.


I: How long did you stay? [00:17:38]

CH: I stayed there actually for quite a while as it was really easy. I stayed there for two and a half years. And then I took two months out and I went travelling around France and Spain but before I had done that I managed to get myself a job with The Guardian which is owned by Manchester Evening News down in London. So I then went away for two months and then moved down to London with the boyfriend I had at the time who I went with. Moved down to London and went straight and worked with The Guardian.

PM: My first proper job-

I: Apart from playing in the band. [laughter]

PM: Apart from playing in the band, was an admin job with British Telecom. Working on this project that had something to do with telecommunications equipment at RAF bases. I started there as a temp and stayed there for about a year. That was the first one.


I: Where did you see yourself going in that role? [00:18:37]

PM: I didn't really, I wasn't really thinking about it in those terms, it was just to pay the rent. I was still, you know, trying to get somewhere with the music. It was just to supplement that.


I: So when did music stop paying? [00:18:51]

PM: Well it all kind of imploded. We had musical differences I believe it’s called. So we ended up having a huge row. And that was the end of that.


I: From the time that you left university you were with one band? [00:19:02]

PM: Yeah, it would have been about eighteen months after university, that it unravelled.

I: And at that point that kind of died a death, then you started thinking, I’ve got to sort of- [00:19:16]

PM: Yeah, basically, yeah.

I: So, you explained how you got down to London. You were living in London already, have you both lived here ever since? [00:19:27]

PM: No, I had a bit of a gap, I went from BT to a job at the Romanian Orphans Trust which was another admin job. But unfortunately after about a week I got moved to the finance department which I absolutely hated, I was so bad at it. I was very bad and very unhappy. So eventually I resigned and left and I went to live in Wales with dad for a bit. And then moved into design work. Eventually got a job in the Coventry Evening Telegraph about a year and a half and then got a job with The Guardian.


I: When you got a job with the Coventry Evening Telegraph, what were you doing there? [00:20:14]

PM: I was designing adverts for their classified section on the night shift.


I: You were actually a designer and that was more conducive? [00:20:24]

PM: Yes I mean it was more where I wanted to go, I kind of wanted to get into the editorial side of the business so that was a step in the right direction as far as I was concerned.


I: When did you start at The Guardian? [00:20:41]

PM: Dates, I’m not very good at dates. I think it would have been about ‘94, does that sound about right?

CH: I think it was ‘95.

PM: Yeah, mid nineties.

I: [To Charlotte] Is that about the same? [00:20:54]

CH: No, I was there quite a while actually, I started there in 1993/1994. I think you joined in 1995 and then I left in 1996. Somewhere around there.


I: So the obvious next question, how did you meet? [laughter] [00:21:16]

CH: Well at The Guardian [laughter]. Well, I used to sell the ads so I was selling advertising space and Paul used to design the ads.

PM: It was a highly romantic setting.

CH: Highly romantic setting of discussing over the Apple Macs. But I would go down to see him past the office and that’s where it came from, really. And it was very, very sociable at The Guardian, again it was big, very young. The average age was twenty five, twenty six. Probably about sixty people worked in that whole department. So every Friday night, you were out, loads of parties, lots of do's. The Guardian being a media company tended to have lots of do's and sessions and conferences etc. Which we used to go to, obviously. And sort of chatted each other up sort of, didn’t we?

PM: Absolutely.


I: At this point in your lives, would you say you’ve become fairly entrenched in the careers that you're in? [00:22:17]

CH: I am, definitely.

PM: Well, sort of. I mean, I wanted to get onto the editorial side, so using desk top publishing programmes is a skill I would need to have to do that, but I was still on the advertising side of things. So I was looking to move on.

CH: Yeah, I suppose on that basis, I didn't want to stay in media sales any more. When I left The Guardian and went to work for where I’m working now. This is now the career choice I want to go down rather than in the media side.


I: You’ve met each other now, so you can answer freely [Laughter]. What’s important about each of your careers and describe exactly what it is you do now? [00:23:02]

CH: Well I’m a director of a recruitment consultancy. And basically we work for the graduate market place and we get graduates their first jobs. And I have gone from being a consultant, ie: dealing with the candidates, dealing with the clients. Now I manage a team who actually do that. So it’s very sales orientated. It’s very fast paced. I specifically deal within the media, PR and recruitment industries. So it has followed on very logically from what I was doing myself anyway. It’s high pressure, it’s sales, it’s target orientated. Because it’s graduates, it tends to be very fast paced as well, because the graduate comes to see us, they want the job the next day. So that’s what we try and do. So now what I do is a lot of managing and a lot of meetings, budget control and all that sort of stuff.

PM: Well I did eventually get into the editorial work I wanted to get into as sub editor for the company I work for now and then started working on the magazine's website and have since kind of gradually just totally moved away from selling and editorial work and into web production. I don't really have a particularly solid career plan, but as long as I’m in a situation where I feel I’m learning stuff and there is a lot to learn that keeps me interested, so the area I’m in now is almost too much to learn, it’s moving so fast and technology is rapidly changing. It’s a big challenge to keep up with that which is great. I do enjoy that. I got a bit bored with the subbing work as well. Sort of we weren't allowed to do any design work because the art department dealt with all of that so actually it didn't feel like a creative job after a bit, so I was keen to move on after a while. And one of the things I particularly like about the website stuff is that it is as it is called, it’s a new media. People are trying to explore what it can do and where it can go and it allows different forms of communication between you and your audience which is interesting.


I: How do you find the working environment where you are now compared to before? [00:25:45]

PM: Pretty good, really good actually. Generally speaking, the company I work for now is a really good employer. They’ve got union representations at Union Chapel, NUJ chapel, at the company. So historically they’ve usually had some really good terms and conditions. So yeah, it’s quite a young company, good atmosphere, good social life. So yes. It’s easily the best place I have worked.


I: I get the impression that, at the moment, you’re fairly quite comfortable where you both are. Do you envisage staying with the same companies for the next year or two? [00:26:20]

CH: Yes, definitely.

PM: Yes


I: What would you say the importance of your respective careers is, in your lives, in terms of your sense of worth or anything else? How important is it that you’ve got the type of job that you have? [00:26:41]

CH: For me, very important because, it sounds very sad, but I don't have loads and loads of hobbies or outside interests or whatever and I have always thought I have really enjoyed working and I really like managing people and I really get a thrill out of that and I particularly like seeing the success of people who I’ve managed. So that gives me a real buzz. So for me it’s really important that I really really enjoy it because if I didn't. And I do, not desperately long hours compared to a lot of people, but I’m usually in for eight and I don't usually finish to half six, seven every night. So my feeling is I’m there quite a lot so I should really enjoy it and get a buzz out of it which I still do. And because it’s constantly growing, decreasing as the market might change. That constantly throws me up with new challenges and things that I have to ride the storm and deal with and carry on and keep myself motivated and motivated for my team.
In the job I have to do, you have to be very enthusiastic all the time or otherwise people can't be enthusiastic, so you have to find that inner strength to be upbeat when things are crashing around your head. So for me it’s really important I enjoy what I do and if you like the worth of it has become more and more significant over the last years. When I worked at the Manchester Evening News, I didn't really care, but The Guardian was okay, but sort of because I started the graduate thing when I was like twenty six it has been in those last five years that I have actually become, I suppose, more mature. I hate to say that, but I suppose that’s what I have become. And with that I have taken that maturity with my job as well.


I: Does how you feel about your work spill over into your social life or do you kind of divide the two? [00:28:47]

CH: I really try hard to divide the two. I really try and don't bring my work home. Occasionally I do, I have to do work at home, but I try not to bring it home in terms of my emotions and stuff, but occasionally it does tipple over. I think if you spoke to my friends and asked how I had changed, they would probably say only as much as they have. Because my friends are pretty much my same age and contemporaries. We are all sort of on the same par, we don't have people desperately younger or desperately older, so I think they would probably say the same. [At Paul] What would you say about bringing work home?

PM: No, I don't think you do, really. Occasionally you’ll physically bring it home. And occasionally if it has been really stressful you know it will affect your mood, but it’s pretty rare. You have a much more stressful job than I have.


I: How important is your job to you then, in terms of how you are as a person? [00:29:53]

PM: I don't really have a great vocational sense with my job really. There are times when I look at it and think, what are we actually doing and we’re concentrating really hard and working really hard to create what exactly? We’re not changing the world, we’re just creating a business magazine website. So there are times when I look at it and think, there must be something more to life. But then, having said that, I do find it really interesting. Technically it’s quite a challenge. It’s a bit like working on a huge puzzle every day which I must say I find quite absorbing. So I’m very connected with it in that way.
And I’m also very committed to it in terms of the sense of doing a really good job. I kind of hate it. Interesting to hear you say that you feel you have become more mature and you know I think in days gone by I perhaps wouldn't have cared so much about the quality of what we actually do. But I’m really committed to that now. I hate it if I feel we are doing a shoddy job. So it’s important to me in those ways, but I don't know, I mean I look at my future career and kind of think there is a big question mark over it. I think a lot of people are going to move around and do different things. I can see myself doing that. So I’m committed to it and it’s important to me, but only so far.


I: And in terms of spilling over into your personal life? [00:31:20]

PM: Well, a really quite horrible tendency to do that, yeah. It gets really, really busy and then gets quiet. So in the busy periods it can take over totally weekends and everything up until a deadline, but that’s kind of the nature of the beast really.


I: You’ve been doing a course as well? [00:31:41]

PM: Yes I started doing a part time MA in journalism studies about five years ago which is about at the point where I wanted to move into editorial work. And I have finally got around to finishing it this year, about the slowest student they have had. I finished it about a month ago.


I: So has that contributed to this? [00:32:06]

PM: Well I managed to keep the commitment to that fairly low key actually for about four and a half years. It was the dissertation that was the worst the last three or four months, quite hard work.

CH: I think the difference with what we do as well as what Paul does is there is a lot of learning and a lot of technology, new technology with it. Mine is just solving problems quickly. Whereas Paul's is learning new technology all the time and because you’re so into that you will be really committed to it. So, for instance, you did do that course with work as well where you are doing every Saturday for three months. So if you like, he’s doing six days a week as well as doing his job as well. And so it does spill over, but you do enjoy doing that because you are a perfectionist and the learner in you.

PM: That’s key really. I mean if I’m learning the stuff then I don't really feel that that’s exploiting my time and taking over too much really. But if I feel like I’m getting something out of it then I don't mind too much. As long as, when it’s quiet, I get the time back.


I: You both originally went to The Guardian and met each other. Presumably you were living in temporary locations at the time. When did you move to Stoke Newington and was that together? [00:33:15]

CH: No. I moved to Stoke Newington as soon as I moved to London, I moved straight here. Well not straight here, I was living in High Wycombe for the first six months and then I moved into Stoke Newington in 1994 and I bought my first flat in Stoke Newington then which I lived in with a flat mate of mine. [To Paul] And you were living in Highbury, so you weren’t a million miles away.

PM. Yeah.


I: Why did you choose Stoke Newington? [00:34:05]

CH: Okay, well a number of reasons. My uncle used to live in Islington, so I thought I would move to Islington because that was all I knew really. My parents lived in Derby so I wanted to be north London and that was what I really wanted to do. Came to Islington, literally had a weekend or a day when I could look around. Went to Islington, set my budget, they laughed me out the estate agents and said how about going down Stoke Newington. And my uncle had also recommended Stoke Newington because my cousin lived here.
So I came down to Stoke Newington and I went to see an estate agent and he drove me around about five properties there and then, found the one I loved. It was a good price, what I wanted. So it was really easy and I have grown to know Stoke Newington more. It did really help that my uncle came and saw the flat with me and at that point my cousin was here and I went with them and found out more about it and all that stuff. Not that I’ve ever seen them the whole time I have been in Stoke Newington, but it did make me feel more at ease about what it was like and what it was going to be like.


I: How have you found Stoke Newington measures up to your impression? [00:35:09]

CH: Well I much prefer Stoke Newington to Islington infinitely. Stoke Newington is very, very like where I used to live in Manchester, in West Didsbury in Manchester which is sort of like, a bit out of town, nice community, nice restaurants and food places and that sort of thing. Good for travel links, but not that good. So that means that when you’re here you like to just stay here and young, lively, energetic atmosphere to it. So if you like, I didn't really know what Islington was going to be like either, but it lived up to what I wanted in a place and it reminded me of where I lived in Manchester which I really enjoyed living in.


I: [To Paul] You were living in Highbury? [00:36:05]

PM: Yeah, I was renting a room in a friend's flat in Highbury for a couple of years.

I: So you went there because your friend had a flat there? [00:36:13]

PM: Yes, absolutely, yeah.

I: And then did you move in together later? [00:36:20]

PM: Yes we started going out and I started spending more and more time round at your flat and getting under your feet.

CH: Yes I decided to charge him rent for it in the end.

PM: So it kind of became permanent.

CH: So then Paul moved in and the three of us lived there for a while. And then my friend moved out. And you then stayed there, didn’t you. How long did you do that, for about a year?

PM: I don’t know, not too sure. Before we moved here?

CH: Yes

PM: I think it was longer than that.

CH: Anyway, then we decided we wanted a bigger flat. And we decided we really wanted somewhere-- what were the reasons?

PM: Well we didn't have a garden or any sort of outside space, which was driving us up the wall a bit.

CH: Yeah, so then we bought this one and moved here.

I: So you bought it together?

CH: Yes.


I: You’ve been talking about what you like about Stoke Newington, what is it that appeals to you? [00:37:21]

PM: It’s a nice place to go out mostly. I think compared to Islington, it’s got a really local feel still. Islington is like going up the West End, whereas round here it feels a bit more local, a bit more friendly, a bit more low key, but there are still loads of places to go out, some nice bars and some cracking restaurants. It’s good.


I: Ok. And what about, I mean I could think of one obvious disadvantage relating to the council but I mean what, do you see a downside to living in the area as well or not really? [00:37:51]


PM: I think, I mean, the difficulty would be maybe later if we have kids. Just starting to think about schools and stuff like that. But the main one, I mean I personally do not feel that we are that affected by the kind of disaster that is Hackney council.


I: And what about the other things about living in the area, it’s not all- [00:38:21]

CH: I think, I think for me, which is obviously affiliated with the council, is that I do feel like although I’m paying what you could constitute as very expensive prices for houses and things like that, I do really feel like I really live in a city. And that dirty streets, litter, mattresses in roads and all that sort of stuff and you know deprivation in terms of schools and sort of what happens in terms of the poverty levels within the area and that sort of thing. And I think that’s really, really sad and I think that’s wrong and I don’t think enough is being done about it. I think, you know, I think Hackney as a council for all its faults, does have some right policies, it’s heart is in the right place if you know what I mean in terms of its liberal policies. But it just can not cope with the volume of a) the people it has coming in from so many different communities and b) just the sort of what the council needs to actually do for its people. So I agree with Paul in terms of schools and education and what I think is really wrong as well, there are too many different pockets of those that are brilliantly catered for and those which are not so well catered for. I mean you look at something like the Stoke Newington Festival that happens once a year. It’s fantastic. It’s absolutely brilliant. Well why doesn’t Dalston get something like that? You know, and what happens to Dalston? It’s sort of like, well that’s not such a good area like Stoke Newington. This is why Hackney’s has got its great name and why its population has grown and why it has got so much money and the most expensive houses and so many artists in the area and all that sort of stuff. And it’s like, yeah that’s fine but that should be equal rather than unequal.

I: The reason Dalston hasn’t got one is that they cut it about 4 years ago.

CH: Right.

I: Well yeah that’s exactly it I think. Yeah well we will talk about that after. Ok. You came here and only friends or relations were your uncle and cousin initially? [00:40:22]

CH: Yeah.



I: Presumably you have built up friends here since you have been here or have other friends followed you here? [00:40:44]

CH: Yes well we have been very lucky with that actually. Well my great mate who lived with me stayed in the area when she moved out and she has got friends in the area as well. So that’s still really close by. I’ve got some other friends who lived in Finsbury who actually just moved out. And obviously Clare has moved into the area as well and she works in the area unlike us two who work out of the area. Again she has got lots of people she knows within the area as well. And also people like Pete and Tracy we knew as well didn’t we? So lots of people have just been here really and also because when we worked at The Guardian I was in Farringdon which isn’t a million miles away from here as well. There were quite a few people from there who lived in this area as well who we sort of faintly still keep in contact with.

I: Would you say it’s fair to say that the area has quite a few people who you’ve either come across or things in common with? [00:41:41]

CH: Absolutely. Yes. [To Paul] Do you agree with that?

PM: Mhm.



I: Ok. You’re obviously...well, ok. How do I phrase this? You’re a Stoke Newington couple, ok. [Laughter] And there is a stereotype of people who live in Stoke Newington. Do you want to start off with this section which I think actually should be more fun than anything else, do you want to start off by describing to me yourselves what you think a stereotypical Stoke Newington couple is? [00:42:30]


PM: Oh God. Don’t know where to start, really.

I: Perhaps it’s going to be more fun for me. [laughter]

PM: Yeah. I don’t know but I suspect they probably drink in The Fox Reformed. I don’t know. What is a Stoke Newington couple?

CH: Well I would say Stoke Newington couple is either a dinky, double income and no kids or you know, which we are. Or double income and just had their first kids.

PM: Which we are.

CH: Which we are. Or just have kids, there are lots of young kids in Stoke Newington. I would class it as pretty much typically white middle class. I would say that the-- this is probably from what we are, I mean obviously there’s big Hasidic communities and Turkish communities and all sorts of different communities. You have also I would say it’s a fairly young place, you don’t see many elderly people around the area. I wouldn’t say I see anyone much over sixty. I would say it’s fairly affluent, if you look at the shops and restaurants and those sorts of things they’re not cheap and cheerful, although there are those, but typically not. It has a young feel about it. There is quite a big booze culture, lots of pubs, lots of restaurants. It gets really lively at the weekend and things. Anything else to add to that?

PM: No, that sort of sums it up I would’ve thought.

I: So I mean, how would you say those things fit in with you? [00:44:05]

PM: About 100%. [Laughter]


I: Are there differences from that in terms of how you view yourselves? [00:44:16]

CH: The other thing I would say as well is that most people I think don’t work in Stoke Newington, most commute into the city or into town.

PM: The thing is we do not have kids. I think there are a lot of young couples who do have kids, really. I suspect thinking about people working outside the area, I suppose quite a few people who don't work during the day and look after kids around here, which we are completely out of that, we didn’t do that all. I guess we probably do fit the profile.

CH: But we’re talking about the profile though which is most similar to us. I mean you know there are a lot of other communities in Stoke Newington that we don’t represent or we don’t know that much about.

PM: You could say a Stoke Newington couple is a Hasidic Jewish community with eight kids.

I: I was certainly specifically asking about what a person might perceive as being this archetypal middle class kind of person.

PM: It’s quite a trendy sort of middle class, there’s lots of alternative, healing type, therapy type. There is a big sort of-- that element to it around here, which we don’t go for. Slightly hippy-ish kind of element to it, which, I don’t think I would really describe myself as a hippy, would you?

CH: No. But I would say it’s liberal. It’s liberal and it’s got quite an eclectic mix, really.

I: And do you like the fact that that’s all around? [00:45:53]

CH: Absolutely.

PH: Yeah.



I: Ok just to sort of labour on about this point a little bit. I have written down a list of things I think have a certain amount of importance in Stoke Newington and maybe you could sort of comment on them in terms of how they affect your lives or what you think of them. First of all, property prices? [00:46:02]

PM: Yes, it affects us, we think about that. Yeah, definitely.

I: How would you say it is in Stoke Newington? [00:46:41]

CH: I would say they’re quite high.

PM: Yeah.

CH: I think that they are, but then again I think that for what you get in the zone that you’re in, that they’re about fair.

PM: Do you think? I don’t. I think they’re overpriced for what the area is. I think they’re fairly stupid, really. I mean, my boss lives in the next road along and it’s a nice big house, but it’s going to go for about four hundred thousand. That’s almost half a million quid for a house in Stoke Newington. I mean, to me that seems mad. So I would say they’re over the top, really.



I: So why do you think that is? [00:47:25]

PM: I guess it’s kind of, you know, the Islington spread, isn’t it. It’s that Islington’s even more expensive. So people are just moving further out.

CH: I think London prices anyway you know if you’re from outside London, which we both are, then they are mad. But I think that if you compare them to say somewhere like Muswell Hill, which is even further out, they are cheaper than there and I think we have got better rail links and better bus links and close to the city and all that stuff in terms of what suits us. So I would argue that I think they’re mad because all London prices are mad, but they’re realistically mad.

PM: Realistically mad. Does that describe us? [laughter]


I: Ok. Eating out? [00:48:12]

CH: Love it, do it all the time.

PM: Yeah, can’t get enough of it, spoilt for choice around here really. We just go out all the time, don’t we?

CH: Yeah. We spend probably a third of our income on eating out. And probably most of the weekend we will be out, eating out.

I: Have you got particular favourite places? [00:48:31]

PM: Yes, Itto we like.


PM: Yeah, Itto is really nice. I love Rassa, really good. We quite like the Turkish ones, don’t we?

CH: Yes, down in Dalston

PM: Vietnamese as well, down in Shoreditch way.

CH: It depends what mood takes us. Sunday roast we’ll go to the Rose and Crown. If we feel like some French we go to The Fox Reformed. If we like a bit of Thai, we might go to the Lemon Grass. It just depends, Il Bacino.

PM: That is one of the fantastic things around here is the choice you get.

CH: Fresh and Wild.

PM: Yeah [laughter], you’re making me hungry.

CH: Greasy Spoon, Leo’s Cafe, we’re a big fan of Leo’s cafe. It just depends on what we feel like really.

I: You don't just stick to the higher echelon ones? [00:49:26]

CH: No, we go to the lot, absolutely.


I: [Laughter] Reading this bit here, it’s quite embarrassing. Material possessions, how important are they to you? [00:49:35]

PM: That’s a toughie, not very. [Laughter]

CH: Not really. I mean I love, there are certain things we love. I love clothes and you love your drum kit. And everything that goes with it.

PM: I don't think of drum kit, musical instruments, as material possessions.

CH: But we’re not bothered about things like tellies or videos. But there are certain things we keep meaning to do with the house and you know.

PM: The truth is we don't spend an enormous amount on material possessions, do we?

CH: No, or thinking about them really. We think about them more than we buy them.

PM: We tend to spend more on going away actually. That’s probably our biggest.

CH: That and eating out.

PM: That’s it, we have no money left after eating out.


I: So that’s obviously a hobby of yours, going away? [00:50:38]

CH: Yes.

I: We’ll come back to that in a minute. What sort of things do you like to do, do you go on trips to Beijing or what do you do? [00:50:42]

CH: Well we aim to go away at least twice a year and we will probably go for a week and then we will go for a week and then two week/three week holiday. And we typically get a flight to an area we want to go and visit whether it be Spain. We went and did Andalusia or Mexico or wherever and then we just go and travel around.

I: So you backpack? [00:51:12]

CH: Pretty much.

PM: We used to just leave it totally open, but you can pre-book so much stuff on the internet now. We book a few places in advance.

CH: We just sort of travel all over, really.

I: Is that a hobby or interest that you have had for quite a long time? [00:51:31]

CH: Yes to be honest as well it has evolved between the two of us because when we first started going out with each other we went on a package tour to Turkey and when we did that we went and did a three day thing to Effasis and stuff like that. And we were like, we like this, but we don’t want to do this again. Ever since then we have done it all by ourselves and just got flights and sorted it ourselves. So it’s something that has evolved from both our passions of enjoying it really. But it has got more elaborate.

PM: Yeah I have not been on holiday for about five years before I started going out with Charlotte. So it was completely new to me. I spent all of my time in dark and dingy rehearsal rooms with third rate bands. So going on holiday was totally new. But I love it, I absolutely love it now. And we have been to Mexico a couple of times, our favourite place.


I: What is it that gets you about it, is it the fact that you just need to recharge your batteries or is it exploring places? [00:52:38]

CH: It’s all of it really. Part of it is to get away and just to recharge batteries, part of it is for the two of us to enjoy each other's company again and have a good laugh with each other because we do have a good laugh on holiday. The other thing really is for us to go and see new places and travel around and we do a mixture of beach for a couple of days. Go and do sights for a couple of days, go and chill out for a couple of days. It’s a bit of here, a bit of there, a bit of everywhere, really.

PM: Yeah, I mean, because we both work, there does have to be an element where we do recharge our batteries, that is important, but we wouldn't want to do that for two weeks. I love all the sights really. We were in Mexico, we went down to the Yucatan, to Palenque and Chichén Itzá and all the Mayan ancient sites, they’re just fantastic.

CH: And then I loved Egypt this year, we did all that.

PM: Yeah, It’s just amazing and as it’s like only two of us it’s dead easy to do. If we had a family then it would not be so easy to go to those kinds of places.

CH: That is partly one of our reasons why we do go where we go. We sort of think if we do find we have some kids, we couldn't take them off to Mexico and take them on internal flights and stuff.

PM: But just going and experiencing a different culture for a little bit is really good fun, trying to speak your pidgin Spanish. I really enjoy all that and different food. So yes the whole package.


I: My next one is, European, and particular Belgium beers and/or southern hemisphere wines? [00:54:37]

PM: I’m not too fussy where it comes from.

CH: You quite like Belgian beers.

PM: Yes Belgian beers are quite good.

CH: But if it’s beer it’s beer. Southern hemisphere wines. We really like Chilean white because we went to Chile, so we really like that. But we don't really mind. If it’s £3.99, plonk it goes down our neck. Chile is the only one that we really look for.

PM: But that’s only a sentimental thing because we went to Chile. We’re not really wine buffs to be honest. I couldn't tell you a glass of Chilean chardonnay from a South African one.


I: Ok, well that was why I ask, because I think there is a sort of element within the Stokey set that it’s quite important to. Robbie Richards is probably very keen on promoting it with The Fox Reform. Ok. 3rd world debt. Next 1. How do you feel about that? Again, I’m asking because I think there is a section of the community which, as I perceive it, issues like that are quite important to them. [00:55:25]

PM: I think it should be cancelled, I do absolutely nothing about it.

CH: Same here.

PM: I’m not a campaigner but I do sympathise with that point of view.


I: How do you feel about living in an area where there are campaigns? You might get a stall or whatever. It doesn’t have to be third world debt, it could be [crosstalk] [00:56:10]


PM: There’s quite a regular campaign from the Kurdish community about treatment of political prisoners in Turkish prisons. I go down Dalston on my route to work on the bus, so I see that all the time. And I don't know, I think fair play to you frankly, perfectly valid campaigns.

CH: We’re not politically involved or affiliated with bodies or anything like that. Some of it I agree with, some of it I don’t agree with.

PM: I will always take leaflets off people like that though.

CH: Yes but things like I don't know, that place, Huntingdon sciences place, or whatever it’s called, that sort of stuff. It is a different issue but you are talking about the whole thing. That sort of thing I do not personally have a problem with what they do, Huntingdon. But I do have a problem with what is happening with the Kurdish rebels. So there are certain things I will pay attention to and sign up for.


I: Ok, to take that example would you have a problem with boobytrapping the Managing Director of Huntingdon Sciences' car? [00:57:25]

Both: Yes.

I: Ok. That’s the sort of thing. So you are kind of sympathetic? [00:57:35]

PM: Depends what the issue is.

CH: Yeah, depends on issues.


I: Ok. That’s great. 3 wheel buggies? [00:57:45]

CH: We quite like them, don’t we?

PM: For babies or for adults?

CH: Prams, I would like a 3 wheel buggy, I quite like them. Do you like them?

PM: Yeah they’re alright, I don't really have any strong feelings about them to be honest.

CH: We don’t have kids.

I: You see a lot of them around, they’re kind of a fashion accessory I would say.

PM: I quite like the little baby pouches.

I: They are a bit of a pain around your neck though.

CH: You’ve got one? Does it hurt?

I: It’s better when they are big enough to go on your back

CH: Right.

PM: Is it a size thing? [laughter]



I: Ok, Jazz influence on music? [00:58:40]

PM: I used to be so cynical about jazz. One of the guys I was in a band with for years was a big jazz buff and we used to ridicule him mercilessly. And low and behold I quite like my trips to the Vortex Jazz Bar now, it’s quite entertaining. I got a bit sick of one, two, three, four, rock and roll. So yes, I’m quite into jazz.

CH: I’m not. I used to have a boyfriend who was horrendously into jazz and I don't mind Chuck Baker or Miles Davis or the mainstream stuff, but he was into that awful experimental jazz. God and ever since then I haven't had any time for it ever really. I let you go to the Vortex on your own.

PM: I go with my jazz mate.

CH: But you do like places like the Ocean and stuff.


PM: Yeah I was going to say, Vortex is great, Stoke Newington is lucky to have it and it would be a shame if it closes down. But Oceans is also really nice, the new venue in Hackney.

I: So have you been there?

PM: Yeah.

I: So what did you go to see?

PM: I always get this wrong, I went to see Fun Loving Criminals. I’m going next week to the African Cuban allstars.


I: Again, are you going on your own? [00:59:55]

PM: No, I’m going with my jazz mate. [laughter]

I: So the music thing is something you do on your own, or without Charlotte.

PM: Yeah. I think it’s best.

I: You mentioned it before but it’s on my list and maybe you wanted to expand on what you said about it. The Stoke Newington festival and other sort of events. [01:00:15]

CH: Just absolutely love it. The Stokey festival is like a national holiday for us every year now. We have a big party round here first of all and then we spend the whole day there. This year it was absolutely fantastic, it was just superb. And what they did with Clissold Park and how they expanded it out there and all that stuff, it was just brilliant. So much so that we now take the day off on Monday because we know it's going to be so bad and we’ve got our friends roped into that as well. So the festival we really, really love.

PM: Yes, it’s great. I mean it could get too big. It’s a nice balance at the moment I think, still feeling quite small and quite local and just having a nice atmosphere but still enough things to keep it interesting throughout the whole day which is a great achievement. And moving all the music into Clissold Park is a really good idea and hopefully they will carry that on. I mean it could get a bit like Notting Hill actually, a bit too big.

CH: I think over and above the festival I think what Stoke Newington is really good at and unfortunately we weren't around for it, but I have heard great things about it, is that there are so many different things they do like the thing they did in Abney Park Cemetery which we missed and all the things at night and they were doing people jumping out at people and all that stuff, sounds really brilliant, pandas coming out in the night and things. And really for me that’s typical Stoke Newington. It’s off the wall, it’s different, it’s new, it’s making use of the resources around you and it’s being really, really funny and having a really good laugh with it.
And I think that a lot of that’s what it’s about. I mean like you’ve got the guy who plays in Brick Lane, he always comes to the Festival as well. He is sort of the fifties piano player and his cronies all sing songs and stuff. And there are some lovely quirky things about Stoky that I think are excellent and I don't know, whether it’s the Stoke Newington Festival organisers and the innovative people within Stoky that do that more than Hackney Council putting an imprint on it. But other things in Hackney that have been good, but we didn't go to, but there was that whole essential Hackney which was in Victoria Park Fields, which had this huge big firework display and things like, was it Dream Vision? Do you remember, that big sort of–

PM: Oh yeah, that was great.

CH: Which I think is now down in Greenwich at the moment. But things like that, it does attract, it does have some very interesting projects and interesting ideas that it does. And it’s got some very innovative people in it and things like hidden art and there are some good ideas there. But I sometimes wonder who pulls the strings. Is it because Hackney has got quite a bohemian creative culture to it or is it the council or both.


I: Well you kind of hit the nail on the head for my next question. We could talk about the festival specifically or we could talk more generally, why do you think Stoke Newington has a festival and Dalston and Hackney Downs do not? What is it? Why did it get started or why is it so successful now? [01:03:18]


PM: I don’t really know the funding situation or the history of it. You mentioned Dalston had some kind, but the funding was withdrawn a few years ago. So obviously that’s going to play a massive part in it. I also don't know how Stoke Newington, Stoke Festival is funded actually.

CH: Well a lot of it’s by sponsorship by shops and stores and things. And I think they do get some big corporate sponsors as well. Like Price Waterhouse. But what they typically get is Il Bacio will put a whole lot of money in, they also have Friends of Stoke Newington Festival and start doing their fund raising early on.

PH: Well if that’s the case, then it comes down to the people who are involved sort of getting it off the ground.

CH: So it’s the local community. We have been thinking about doing some sort of Covenant or becoming a Friend of Stoke Newington Festival because we enjoy it so much and agree with it so much and love it so much. And I do think, if you speak to people. I speak to people who have a cousin who lives in Stoke Newington, my hairdresser actually. And she lives somewhere like north London, but every single year she is down here for the Festival. And little things like we have the rough guide to Great Britain and Stoke Newington Festival is in there. So it has got a lot more kudos and outside support that I think lends itself to an institution.

I: Sure. Ok. Right sort of. That’s great. Loads of really nice things that you said there that were really useful. Just to start again. We’ve talked about why you came to Stoke Newington. We talked about what you like about Stoke Newington, what you think is sort of the essence of the place. I’d just like to talk about the future really, how you see the place developing , how you see yourselves developing moving forwards. So, first of all, in the next 5 or 10 years what do you think is going to happen to Stoke Newington? [01:05:10]



PM: Good question. I don’t know. I mean the way things have changed in Stoke Newington. I mean if it continues in the way it has been changing then it’s going to become even more expensive. You might start to see- god, it’s going to sound depressing- but you might start to see chain restaurants appearing on Church Street. Like Fresh and Wild is probably the first one. KFC or what have you. So Church street might lose its local feel. It’s all small businesses. And already we have noticed that quite a few of the small local shops on Church Street have shut down. We don't know but we reckon they might have had a recent hike in business rates. Quite a few seem to have shut down all at the same time. So that’s a bit of a worrying trend. And the other big issue for Hackney which is obviously going to affect Stoke Newington is the whole council situation and how that gets managed and resolved, or not resolved.

CH: I think it will become-- I think it will continue to be affluent and I think it will continue to be. You might start seeing private nursery schools and private primary schools potentially pop up. I don't necessarily think in terms of infrastructure it’ll particularly change. I don't think we’re about to get a tube or anything and I don't think that we’re going to get any more buses or anything like that. I think that will pretty much stay the same. It might well be that certain communities move out of the area or get priced out of the area. We currently live next door to two houses which are solely owned by Jewish families. As long as they stay there they will be fine, but you know like where we were living before there were lots of flats and you know I don't know how they will continue to afford it unless it’s council owned.

PM: That’s a great shame, the way things are changing. Local communities run the risk of getting priced out in Stoke Newington. Totally ruins any local community feel that was there and that’s one of the things that we like so that would be a shame if that goes. But in terms of our immediate plans, we are going to buy a house around here. So we’re not really planning on moving anywhere at all. We want to stay around here.

CH: But I’d be amazed if we were here when we were fifty five.


I: Just to sum up what you were saying, you sounded fairly gloomy about what you thought is likely to happen within Stoke Newington? [01:08:39]

PM: I don't want Stoke Newington to become like Islington. Islington to me is, you know, it’s like the West End now really, it doesn't really seem to have a community element to it. That does still exist here. So if prices continue to rise and local families or businesses get priced out then I think that would be to the detriment of Stoke Newington’s community.

CH: And its culture. A classic example of that, we’ve mentioned it already, is the Vortex. The Vortex is great, it’s different, it’s unusual, it’s independently owned and they’ve made no bones about the reason why they might not be able to stay is the cost of the rents. Dead simple. And for us, although I don’t particularly like jazz, I would put money into that to keep that there because I would rather keep that as part of our community rather than selling it out to McDonalds.

PM: I don't know how much of the community the Vortex serves though. It’s a really tiny minority of middle class jazz lovers who go to it.

CH: But when you build that in with, [Cirque(?) 01:09:50] has gone. It looks like Pecko is about to fall. You have a number of stalls there that used to be quite successful and if you build that all up and suddenly you find a situation where you have got five shops to rent. We’ve already got Simply Coffee or whatever it is. And I think that’s the other thing as well, is that I think what we don’t want it to turn into is just a bar and café place. We do like the fact that it’s got some shops down here that you can go to and we do like the fact that it’s got electrical shops and hardware shops.

PM: KAC Hardware.

CH: Oh, we love KAC Hardware. But places like that, we love the fact that it really is a mini little high street. You’ve got that in Islington, but just not the same way.


I: More personally to you, how do you see- you said you’re planning to buy a house in the area. How do you see your lives progressing in the wider context? [01:10:51]

PM: We are probably going to do the family thing, that is on the horizon and that is one of the reasons we want to move. So looking for a place with a few empty rooms that we can fill up with screaming brats.

CH: The way I perceive it to be is that I reckon we will stay here until probably our first child was around the ten mark. In terms of nursery education and primary school education. I’m led to believe by a very strong educational force that it’s very strong in the Hackney area but my concern is the secondary school situation. Of course that could change.

PM: Yeah, hopefully it will change.

CH: And if so we’ll stay.

PM: Absolutely. I mean it’s so far away that it’s a bit of a non issue at the moment.

I: By staying here until the age of ten for your first child, you mean in the area rather than here? [01:12:01]

Both: Yeah.

I: Looking completely into the future then, you obviously see yourselves moving out at some point with the caveats that you’ve already said. If and when you do move, where do you think you would end up moving to? What would you fancy at the moment? [01:12:13]

PM: I think we would struggle. I mean I personally feel that I will move out of London eventually despite the fact that I absolutely love it and have for the last five years or so, but I think I will move out eventually because I don't come from London so I will probably want to move somewhere a bit quieter. I think we would struggle to go back to the village life or something like that, we would probably end up in a small town.

CH: I have a major no go about the home counties. My view is if we move out of London we move out of London. If we moved out of London and we were in the home counties, heaven forbid but say we were, then I would work in that area. There is no way I would commute at all. To a degree, it would be fairly logical for us both to move back to the midlands because that is where both our parents are and obviously there might be a logic to us living somewhere like Nottingham or Birmingham so we still have the city feel but I really don't know. It really depends, in terms of our fortune. If we suddenly came into thousands of pounds tomorrow we could go where we liked. But we don't know, do we? We don't have a burning desire to go somewhere. A friend of mine has a burning desire to go and live in Dorset. That is fine because that is what she wants to do and she is going to do it. But we don't have that burning desire.


I: So, don’t have a life plan? [01:14:13]

PM: No. Every time we go to Brighton we get tempted.

CH: Yeah but then again that is exactly the same thing. Neither of us want to commute and certainly if we had children we wouldn't want to commute. So the last thing we would want to do is move away further.


I: Thank you very much both of you, that was great.

END OF INTERVIEW [01:14:59]