Oral History Interview - Paul Dash

Video File

17/8/2016

2026.53

4 x Video recordings (.mov) of an oral history interview with Paul Dash. Interviewer Niti Acharya. Artist Paul Dash's studio was in Hackney Wick at the time of this interview, and he had been there for many years.

Total Length - 24 minutes, 17 seconds

Part A
[00:00:02] Introduction

Part B
[00:00:05] Born in Barbados, moving to Oxford, parent’s jobs, secondary school

[00:01:23] Artwork at school, playing cricket, application to the art college

[00:02:58] Scholarship to Chelsea School of Art, work after degree

[00:03:50] Teaching at Issac Newton then Haggerston Girls School in Hackney, different approaches to teaching, ‘multicultural’ approaches to teaching

[00:06:00] Starting a cinema club, watching Bollywood films with South Asian students

[00:07:10] Borrowing objects from an Educational Resource Centre in Hackney, getting the students drawing, students bringing their own objects in, inspectorates taking an interest in Dash’s work,

[00:09:26] Lack of African-Caribbean materials for art, impact on African-Caribbean students, Haberdashers’ Aske’s

Part C
[00:00:00] Haberdashers’ Aske’s, Institute of Education, MA on African-Caribbean students in education, PhD at Goldsmiths

[00:00:35] Caribbean Artist Movement, meeting John La Rose, Andrew Salkey, Wilson Harris, Kamau Brathwaite, Aubrey Williams, Art Derry, etc.

[00:03:13] Working life, lack of time for artistry, figurative painting, more time for art since retiring, using handmade paper

[00:05:55] Studio in Hackney Wick, Various places Dash has lived

[00:07:16] Artistic community in Hackney Wick, Meeting Yinka Shonibare and other artists

Part D
[00:00:00] Artists moving out of the area, flats being built, expensive real estate and costs, previous artist community in Shoreditch,

Dash, Paul (Subject of)

No

[Part_A]
Q. Paul, thank you for this interview. If you could just start by telling us a little bit about yourself? [00:00:02]

Paul Dash (PD). Yes, well I was born in Barbados 1946, and I’m 70 this year. And I came to this country in 1957, so just a few – [Cuts abruptly]

End of Part A - [00:00:22]

[Part_B]
Interviewer. Start again.

PD. [00:00:05] Start again, yeah. Yeah, I was born in 1946 in Barbados, and I came to this country in 1957, age 11. So just what is, it's eight years after Windrush? So that’s really at the very beginning pretty much of this movement of people from the Caribbean to the UK. And I joined my parents in Oxford. My dad was working as a milkman at the time. My mother was, she had stopped working, but she had worked for a couple of years in a hotel as a chambermaid. That sort of thing was common amongst Caribbean people at that time. Anyway, I went to Oxford, and was dumped in this awful secondary modern school called Cowley St. John Boys School, and it was a terrible Dickensian place. In four years there I never had a stick of homework and that sort of thing. And they put me into the lower of two forms. It was a two form entry school, they put me - just took one look at me and thought ‘you’re from the colony,’ so boom, you’re going into the lower form. And they kept me in there for four years.

[00:01:23] So when I left school, I knew nothing about GCEs, GCSEs they’re called nowadays. And so I had to teach myself things. But the one thing that saved me really was my artwork. It became quite apparent when I was at school that I had a talent for painting, making artwork. I didn't know I had, but the teachers were aware of it, started making a fuss, I started winning prizes and stuff like that. So I developed this confidence in art making. As well as playing cricket. As a Barbadian, I played cricket well, I played for the school and I played for the county, alongside these kids from grammar schools and private schools. But it was the painting that really was, what really was of great interest to me.

At the age of 15, I left school, I applied to the local art college and I was told I was too young, I had to try, you know, a year later there, at the age of 16. And so they kind of packed me off to the - they gave me a choice of two things actually, either go off to work for a year and apply to the art college or I could go to college, they could make arrangements for me to go to the college of foreign education, for a year. So I said, “please college” so I can have an education. Yeah, so they packed me off to the college for a year. I applied again at the age of 16 and they said, ‘Yeah, love your work, blah, blah, blah, but you need to have five GCEs.’ So there I was, a kid who had never been prepared for study because I went to such a terrible school and a racist school and I had to start from scratch.

[00:02:58] Anyway I got my GCEs, applied a couple of years later, got in through my foundation and then I won a scholarship to go to Chelsea School of Art in London, which was very difficult to get into in those days, but I got into Chelsea and took my degree. And after three years, I wasn't happy there, I didn't like it, but that's another story. After three years, I stayed in London; I was determined not to go back to Oxford, so I did bits and pieces. I worked at Selfridges for a while in the kitchen, taking plates off the dishwasher machine, and very hot plates as I remember them and then I got the sack from there. Then I did jobs cleaning offices and such work, working on a part-time basis, because I wanted to keep time for my painting. I had a nice studio.

[00:03:50] And then after a period of time, I needed more money and something a bit more secure, so I started teaching. I taught initially at a school called Isaac Newton, which was in West London, Portobello Road. And that was interesting as an environment; but the school was very, very difficult, not very pleasant to work in. And so after half a term, six-seven weeks, I applied for a job at Haggerston and got it. And that's where my teaching really started, at Haggerston Girls School in Hackney. And it was a wonderful school. I absolutely loved it and I stayed there for 15 years and I didn't want to leave. During that time, you know, I watched the school develop and change and it was a fantastic environment to be in, lots of interesting teachers, many young teachers committed to what they were doing, and some very, very interesting children. Not many black children, a growing number of South Asian children. Many came from across the border from Tower Hamlets to Haggerston, because it was a single sex school and their parents wanted them to go to a single sex school.

And it was there that, particularly with a growing number of South Asian pupils in this school environment, that I thought that my way of teaching, which is very traditionally kind of British European, needed to be looked at again, because maybe it wasn't appropriate for these children who were bringing other experiences into the school, and who needed something else, I felt.

I’m talking about the 1970s, late 70s into the 1980s that I started experimenting with different approaches to teaching, and it coincided with other people having similar views. In primary schools in particular, people started experimenting with, what we call now, multicultural approaches to teaching. And so I started working with the kids really, suggesting to the kids that they can bring things in that we could use, things that were of interest to them. Of course kids don’t do that, you know, they say ‘yes’ in front of your face, but they always forget or whatever.

[00:06:00] And so, I remember that I started a cinema club, because at that time we used the old video tapes, things. And I thought, if I can start a cinema club and bring the kids together at lunchtime and we can just be together and share experiences and so on. And so I would go to the local video rental shops and borrow these tapes. I remember at that time, there was a famous South Asian actor called Padmini, I used videotapes of Padmini acting and various tapes where there were, you know, South Asian tapes where there were people dancing and singing on those songs, which is kind of traditional, what people call Bollywood movie material, and the kids love it.

My art room, I had a cinema club, if you like, organised, was absolutely bursting with children every Thursday, when this thing was run. The kids, the Asian kids came in, then the white English kids started coming in as well, because there is something different going on at the school, you know.

[00:07:10] But I didn’t know where to take it. I got all the kids together, we are watching these videos, and I thought, ‘Well, how am I going to feed this into my artwork?’ And anyway, I started what really, you know, the local inaudible[00:07:25] and it's called Contact or Compact or something, I can't remember what it was called now. But I started reading about other people doing similar things or I discovered that there was an Educational Resource Centre in Hackney where you could actually borrow dolls and various artifacts from different cultural environments for teaching purposes. So I joined that club and I visited that centre and I started borrowing beautiful dolls from India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, places like that, things from Benin and different parts of Africa, to put into still lives.

And so I got the kids drawing, you know, the usual traditional western way, but I was using material from different places, because it was, that was my way of teaching myself of experimenting, just trying to find a way of engaging with the kids in a way that was meaningful to them. And then one or two kids started bringing in fabrics from India, Pakistan, from Nigeria, from Ghana, and so on and they were put into still lives or we were developing fabric, making fabric designs and so on.

Gradually, things were beginning to emerge that were interesting. The inspectorates, who were based in Elephant and Castle, came down to the school and saw what’s going on and they took an interest in what I was trying to do. When they were developing stuff, the inspectorate, making videos like this for working in schools, I was invited to actually participate in some of these. I remember something on GCSE, for example, grading, I was asked to be involved in that. So people were taking an interest in what I was doing, which encouraged me, it became more and more exciting even though I really wanted to be painting, I was still excited by that as well.

[00:09:26] Except that there was one area that concerned me. By now, into the 1980s, there was a growing number of African-Caribbean pupils in the school. And I couldn't find any material from the Caribbean that I could put into my setups, as I call them, or I could get the kids to use as a starting point for making. There wasn't that tradition, you know, there weren’t any Caribbean fabrics or Caribbean pots that I could find anywhere in museums or galleries, no Caribbean masks, even though there were things being developed for carnival. I wanted to circumvent carnival, I thought carnival is one thing, it's an art form in its own right, but it's not quite right for what I am trying to do in the classroom. Maybe that was a mistake, but that's the way I saw it.

So that became an issue, you know, I could find quote unquote “multicultural material” from lots of places; Aboriginal Australia, Inuit people from Canada, or indigenous Americans, so called Native Americans. But not from the Caribbean, and I thought well obviously the slave trades’ got the connection between the Caribbean and Africa. So that became an area of real interest and concern, if you like. In thinking about it, I couldn't find resources from the Caribbean, made it apparent that there is disconnect between Caribbean people and Africa, African-Caribbean people that is, and African tribal communities which is - to the severance of connection by the slave trade.

So the question for me then was how do I make that link to demonstrate to African-Caribbean pupils in this classroom, that African cultural material is also part of who they are, you know, part of their inheritance, if you like, despite the slave trade, even if they can't pinpoint a particular tribal community that they could make a connection with. Generally speaking, the things that went on in Africa, are very much part of their cultural inheritance. So that became part of my research area that led later, after I left Haggerston and went on to Haberdashers' Aske’s after Haggerston schools, Head of Department - [Cuts abruptly]

End of Part B - [00:11:57]

[Part_C]

PD. [00:00:00] I went there for five years and then I went to the Institute of Education. While there, just before I went to the Institute, I did an MA. My MA was focused on African-Caribbean pupils in our education. I was focusing particularly on this issue of resources; what resources are there? I did a lot of work around that. And then later, I went on to do a PhD at Goldsmiths with the same intention but looking at it in greater depth.


Q. Could you tell me a little bit about your involvement with the Caribbean Artist Movement? [00:00:35]

PD. Right. The Caribbean Artist Movement. Going back again to when I was at Haggerston School, just before I went to Haggerston School I think it was … what 1979, sorry 1969-1970, around about 1970, yep. It coincided with just about that time I went to Haggerston School I think. I was involved in an exhibition somewhere. I don’t know, the Commonwealth Society someplace, Commonwealth Institute or someplace like that. I didn’t know any black artists, none, black writers, black intellectuals. But my work was on display and I was looking at my painting and one of my paintings and thinking it was displayed well. I felt this tap on my shoulder, literally, when I turned around it was John La Rose and he introduced himself to me. Of course John La Rose was one of the key people involved in the Caribbean Artist Movement. He introduced himself, said that he’s from the Caribbean Artist Movement, and he invited me to become a member and I did and that’s where it all started.

As I said to you earlier, I met and worked alongside Andrew Salkey, a great Jamaican writer and artist - sorry, great Jamaican novelist. Wilson Harris, Kamau Brathwaite, at that time he was - oh God my brain is going - but anyway, Kamau Brathwaite, Aubrey Williams, Art Derry, and a string of other people; some of whom are quite well today. When we had meetings, often in John’s home or Andrew’s home, where we’re surrounded by these extraordinary thinkers and artists; black people who were very very very articulate, much much better educated than I was, obviously my terrible experience in Oxford.

So I was in awe of them but I was also exhilarated by the fact that I was working alongside, meeting with people who were so able and who were black like myself.


Q. Could you tell me a little bit about your practice and your style of work? [00:03:13]

PD. My work has changed quite a lot over the years. You know, I've been involved in education in schools and then tertiary education or higher education for over 40 years, and let me think for a minute, 50 years, sorry, more like 50 years really. Um, no sorry 45 years. And obviously for many years I was part-time and then over-time because, of course, because I took on more responsibility as my wife, you know, as we decided to have a family and my wife couldn't work full-time. Then I took on more time at work and so I was given more and more time over to teaching and my work really began to suffer for that. Something I've always regretted but I put to one side to ensure that we had a roof over our heads. And that never changed, in fact, after a while, I ended up working full-time in education doing the things I've been talking about. So my style was stuck in a bit of a rut to be honest. I could see that there are things going on around me. I love figurative painting and I'll always be a figurative painter. But I wanted to find an area of working in figuration that spoke for me but that was very difficult when I had to be preparing lectures or preparing material for schools or college or what have you. And it's only been in the last three or four years that my work has developed in the way it has as you see it now since I've retired. I retired five years ago. It's only, you know, been in this period that things have really began to come together and gel in the way that one can see them. That basically is it, you know, a lot of my work is on paper. I love using handmade paper. There's a quality to it that is, you know, extraordinary. It's alive. I spend a lot of money on paper. I like the interaction you can have between ink, pen, ink, paper, and the way you can actually move things around. Is that helpful?


Q. Yes, definitely. You've been based here in Hackney Wick for the last 14 years. What brought you back to Hackney to have a studio here? [00:05:55]

PD. I've never really moved away since I've … When I was at Haggerston school, I lived in Whitechapel and just about I don't know a mile and a half, 2 miles from the school and after that … You know my wife when I met; when I met my wife at Haggerston school we moved about a bit you know we were in Holloway for a while, Stoke Newington and so on but these were expensive places and we were renting and then we decided we're going to buy our own place and we didn't have the capital really to buy a property in North London. So we bought a house in Forest Gate, Pevensey Road, and we stayed there for about 5 years. Then we bought a place in Upper Leytonstone, that's where we are now. So we never really left the east apart for a short period when we were living in Holloway and Stoke Newington which we loved, incidentally. We'd like to have stayed there but we just couldn't afford the prices and it's even worse now, of course. Yeah.


Q. Could you tell me a little bit about the artistic community surrounding you here in Hackney Wick and how’d you find it? [00:07:16]

PD. Yeah, it's a vibrant place. It's quite big. You know, it's like a small village, but you know, it is packed with artists. I think it's the biggest artistic community in Europe. And when we have open studios, as I said to you earlier, the open studio events out here are just unbelievable. Thousands of people floating around, drifting around if you like, and we have, like you know, photographers and sculptors and painters and musicians playing on rooftops and such. Like it really is extraordinary. And of course the canals around here and so the canal boat community as well doing their things and having barbecues and parties and such like. It's an extraordinary moment really in the artistic calendar of this place. Quite unique and we have some extraordinary talented artists over here. I mean Yinka Shonibare was in this building, I used to meet Yinka on a regular basis, we have a chat on the ground floor. And when I was at Goldsmiths, and as a result of that kind of regular interaction and meeting up, I asked him if he'd do something for me at Goldsmiths and he said yes, he did. In fact he actually got the students, my MA students, into the gallery where he shows his work and he spoke to them in front of one of his exhibitions and so on. And we did that twice and on another occasion we actually went to his studio. We went to his own studio when he moved from here to his own privately owned studio. We went to his place and that was extraordinary. So, you know, Rebecca Warren, Yinka and various other people.

Interviewer. Thank you.

PD. Is that helpful?

End of Part C - [00:09:21]

[Part D]
Q. So, one of the things we're seeing more and more of is how artists are leaving
Hackney to go elsewhere. And I wondered whether that's something you've experienced in the artists you meet around here or whether everyone's still quite settled in Hackney Wick. [00:00:00]

PD. I think people will always move to go elsewhere. And I mean, this is a community under threat, really. If you look around here, you see all the flats that are going up because of the park next door, the Olympics. This is a very expensive little area now. And I'll be surprised if there's an artistic community of this size even in five or six years time. You know, if you look, if you walk down by the canal, you see that there are areas that have been flattened. There are flats going up or there will be flats going up. Um and they're dying to get their hands on this building. You know, this is very expensive real estate now. So there will be people leaving here and they'll be starting a new community somewhere else where it's cheaper to live. I don't know where that place will be but I'm quite certain that this community will probably be destroyed or certainly greatly diminished in the coming years because of that. But artists always find places to work. I mean that's been a history of, you know, art in the western world. I mean Shoreditch, of course, there was a vibrant artistic community there and there still is a creative community there now, but in terms of artists coming, you know just starting out trying to build careers for themselves, I don't think you find many in Shoreditch, it's too expensive now. You have established designers there. But people starting out, you know, in the past would have come here. After Shoreditch they came here. I think from here they'll move on somewhere else. They'll find a place that is, you know, maybe not socially attractive, but for them as artists, it's a place where they can be left alone to get on with it. And I think they'll move on as this place becomes more and more difficult. You know, these studios are really expensive. For me it's convenient being here because of where I live. But I do find, you know, I'm beginning to feel a pinch. It is expensive. Because they're trying to drive us out, and they'll succeed eventually.

End of Part D - [00:02:37]