Oral History Interview - Andrew Hung
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Audio file
Production date
2001
Object number
2026.138
Physical Description
Audio recording (.wav) of an oral history interview with Andrew Hung, interviewed by Alex Sidney in 2001. Andrew talks about the history and managing Shanghai, a Chinese restaurant that was based in Dalston, Kingsland High Street. Total length- 29 minutes, 53 seconds.
Description
Andrew Hung Summary
[00:00:06] Introduction to Andrew; date and place of birth, his family, interests in school
[00:01:50] Father owning restaurants in Hong Kong during the 80s
[00:03:15] Moving to Britain; studying architecture at university, part time job in food trade
[00:05:08] Shifting from architecture to working in the food industry
[00:06:08] Job progression; starting as a junior and working his way up to a manager for Weng Wah Group
[00:07:49] Benefits of progressing through to his current position
[00:08:51] Philosophy about how a restaurant business should be run
[00:11:18] Primary base of operations for running the business
[00:12:19] Origins of Shanghai restaurant
[00:15:38] Connection between Shanghai and F. Cookes restaurant
[00:18:46] How Shanghai restaurant differs from other Chinese restaurants; building, unique cuisine
[00:19:55] Type of cuisine that they serve at Shanghai restaurant; house specialties
[00:21:39] Building changing to meet the needs of the different customers
[00:23:56] Shanghai restaurant’s relationship with Dalston; fitting in an area with many different specialist cuisines
[00:25:57] Reason for Shanghai restaurant’s popularity
[00:27:30] Staying relevant; maintaining cutting edge identity, training staff, serving unique dishes
[00:28:34] How Andrew wants to develop the business; focusing on consolidating the four restaurants
[00:00:06] Introduction to Andrew; date and place of birth, his family, interests in school
[00:01:50] Father owning restaurants in Hong Kong during the 80s
[00:03:15] Moving to Britain; studying architecture at university, part time job in food trade
[00:05:08] Shifting from architecture to working in the food industry
[00:06:08] Job progression; starting as a junior and working his way up to a manager for Weng Wah Group
[00:07:49] Benefits of progressing through to his current position
[00:08:51] Philosophy about how a restaurant business should be run
[00:11:18] Primary base of operations for running the business
[00:12:19] Origins of Shanghai restaurant
[00:15:38] Connection between Shanghai and F. Cookes restaurant
[00:18:46] How Shanghai restaurant differs from other Chinese restaurants; building, unique cuisine
[00:19:55] Type of cuisine that they serve at Shanghai restaurant; house specialties
[00:21:39] Building changing to meet the needs of the different customers
[00:23:56] Shanghai restaurant’s relationship with Dalston; fitting in an area with many different specialist cuisines
[00:25:57] Reason for Shanghai restaurant’s popularity
[00:27:30] Staying relevant; maintaining cutting edge identity, training staff, serving unique dishes
[00:28:34] How Andrew wants to develop the business; focusing on consolidating the four restaurants
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Photo credit - copyright Sarah Ainslie.
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Interviewer (I): Okay, this is Alex Sydney interviewing Andrew Hung. I think it's the 21st of June 2001. Okay, Andrew, could you just give me the, just for the start of the tape, could you give me your date and place of birth, please? [00:00:06]
Andrew Hung (AH): Right. That's 25th November 1971 and it's in Hong Kong.
I: Okay. Before we get on to, sort of, talking more about the Shanghai restaurant, just get a bit of background about you and where you're coming from. So I mean, first of all, could you maybe tell me a few things about your family? [00:00:27]
AH. Not much to say about my family really. Well, I grew up in Hong Kong and that's where my family is at the moment. But they're actually thinking about moving back to China for some reason, which I don't know. But I chose to come here and do my study here about 14 years ago.
I: Okay. So what were your interests before you came here in terms of education then if you were? [00:01:06]
AH: Well all I know [is] that I wanted to become an architect, funny enough that I studied architecture engineering in university. After I graduated from Westminster, I took up a job here and here ever since really.
I: Okay. All right we'll go through that because I mean I've sort of worked out some questions on those notes. But one of the things that in your, sort of the, publicity biography sort of thing that we get given out, is you mentioned your father and the fact that he founded a restaurant chain or catering chain in- [00:01:28]
AH: Oh you want to talk about that bit?
I: Yeah I was wondering if you’d tell me a bit about that [crosstalk] [00:01:50]
AH: Sure. Yeah. Well, my dad used to have a few restaurants in Hong Kong. He started with Cantonese cuisine and Sichuan and then started [to] move on to [the] more vegetarian side as well. At that time, they're very popular in Hong Kong in the 70s and in the 80s as well. People think about … they think about more like healthy food and as you know that Buddhists in Hong Kong are very popular, so they more or less try to find some way to cater those people as well as giving people [the] idea that healthy vegetarian food. They have a lot of more meat dishes like more chicken, more duck, more fish, but all based on vegetables and that sort of idea really, fruit and vegetables. My dad was into those things, so he start[ed] off a new chain in the mid-80s. And I was there to do a bit of helping out, doing pieces.
I: Okay so what sorts of things did you do, being a helping hand? [00:02:56]
AH: Just very general things you know, from like being … bring teacups out and cleaning the tables and things like that. So start with very basic things; try to get to know the trade and help the people out really.
I: Okay. And then so you moved to … what was the reason then for you moving to Britain? [00:03:15]
AH: Well to study, to fulfill my dream to become an architect, really.
I: Okay. And why did you choose Britain as opposed to anywhere else? [00:03:25]
AH: Well, because my uncles are in here they [lived] in England for quite a while and, my aunt. So rather than go to somewhere that [has] no relatives and friends, so I chose to come to England instead.
I: And you went to Westminster because that was where there's a good course there? [00:03:39]
AH: That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
I: Okay. Okay so, when you … from what I understand while you were at university you kind of took a job as - [00:03:47]
AH: That's right, yeah. Well what happens, as you know, that when you're studying university you try to make ends meet at the same time as studying. So that's what I did - get a weekend part-time job and study, you know, the rest of the week and that's how I got into the trade as well. After I graduate and people asked me to chip in more hours before I moved on [to] the next things because after that I was thinking about ‘should I have moved on somewhere else to study or should I have stayed in England?’. So that was the time that I involved more in this trade.
I: So was your first job in that area with The Weng Wah Group or was it in another restaurant? [00:04:35]
AH: No actually, I [worked] also in a couple other places beforehand, similar setup, in London as well. It was very coincident I got this job [at] that sort of time because friends of friends is a big friend. So, get to know him and we got on quite well and he invite me back to involve a little bit more in the business.
I: Okay. Right. Okay. So I mean you said you wanted to be … you were basically wanting to be an architect originally? [00:05:08]
AH: Yeah, that's right.
I: That was your sort of life plan. So when did you kind of get to the point where you thought maybe that's not what I'm going to end up doing? [00:05:16]
AH: It's sort of like when you get more involved in certain things and you start to develop that kind of bonding with it. Selling tables in the restaurant is kind of quite fascinating because you're meeting different kinds of people all the time constantly. All the tables, next table’s different from next and you try to get to know different kinds of people. I guess the philosophy of the whole group is very like mine. So that's why I like it.
I: Okay. So tell me … I mean another thing it said in the sort of information about you is that you progressed through the sort of promotional ladder in the trade. [00:05:56]
AH: That's right.
I: So what was the progression that you did? What was the job that you did and what did they involve? [00:06:08]
AH: Again, that I start from very basic things you know. So try to get to know every single bits and pieces at the same time. I was involved in more or less everything now. I try to know every single bits even how to wash a plate, how to put the things in the right place as well and like the bar works, help out in the kitchen bits and pieces; try to know every single things, you know? I like to consolidate my background before I moved on. So that's why I chose to do that from the bottom rather than take up a middle or management process straight away after I graduate and try to get to know different kind[s] of people, work with other people, understand the philosophy behind the whole group. That's what I did.
I: So you worked your way up through The Weng Wah Group. [00:07:05]
AH: That's right.
I: You came to Weng Wah when you were still relatively junior. [00:07:10]
AH: That's right, yeah.
I: Okay. Before you took this post, did you work as a manager of a restaurant? [00:07:13]
AH: Yes, I was a manager in the restaurant for Weng Wah specifically for quite a while.
I: That's in Belsize Park? [00:07:30]
AH: That's in Belsize Park, North London. And when the company expand[ed], I gradually get [a] promotion. More involved in the company set up like decision makings and where do you want us to go and sort of like the direction of the restaurants and the company.
I: Okay. So, how do you think-- obviously because you haven't just kind of done a course and then come in right at the top, you've actually sort of worked your way through and you … how do you think that helps you to manage the service? [00:07:49]
AH: Well, it actually gives you a more in-depth idea about the whole setup, you know, right from the little things, you know, how do you put a fork and up to how to greet a customer at the front of the door. It’s generally when you tell people to do something, then you have a more better background to understand. Sometime[s] when you move to a senior position, you might not understand what [is] underneath you. What do they need to do? What sort of things they need to face when you do so, when they want to tackle some problems that give me a better background to do that really.
I: I mean does it give you a feeling that you're more capable of understanding how your staff feel when you're asking them to do things? [00:08:41]
AH: Oh yes, oh yes. Definitely, definitely.
I: Okay. What's basically your basic philosophy on how you should run a restaurant business? [00:08:51]
AH: Well, it's very simple. It's to get to know your customer. That is what I think is very important - try to bridge the gap between the customers and ourselves. We, in the 21st century, will want to, you know, give people a different platform in terms of restaurant business. We don't want to be like any other cafe chain or another restaurant chain which have [the] same name all the way through, serving the similar kind of food, exactly the same menu as the others. We try to have different menus and different cuisine [in] different areas. So all the restaurants have its own characters, like Shanghai itself, have a very standout and unique character compared to the other restaurants in the area or in our own group. So that is very important - get to know customers, know what they need. We always emphasise that we tailor the menu for the customer. Try to know that what they want more than giving them what do we have. So we might have, you know, let's say for example 50 dishes but we actually could change it, put hundreds and hundreds of different kinds of dishes for them. Just different combination of sauces and texture of meat and ingredients.
I: So, how do you know what … If you give them what they want, how do you know what the customer wants? [00:10:16]
AH: We talk to the customers. When we first came, the customer come in and we try to notice that what kind of food they like. We talk to them in between, see how do they feel about the food and the service and all different kinds of aspects of restaurants and the experience that they have here. We try to act on those point that they give us and then either we do it straight away something we could, like if they have certain things they think it's not what they want they want something else if and we try to help them to explore different kind of sauces or texture of meat and ingredients and so we remember them next time when they come back and then we try to think about something different along that line for them. So to give the people the idea that you care about them.
I: Okay. Just a couple of final questions about you before we start talking about this restaurant. Whereabouts--you're obviously, if you're managing or you're overseeing the management, is it four restaurants? [00:11:18]
AH: That's right. Yeah.
I: Where are you actually based? Today you're clearly working here. [00:11:30]
AH: [Laughter] Well, we always say the Weng Wah, the Belsize site is the flagship because that's the beginning, that's the first restaurant we have. But Shanghai is the head office because we had an office at the bank and even though I'm in and out but my main core of business is here.
I: So, whereabouts do you live? Do you live nearby or? [00:11:58]
AH: Well, upstairs. [Laughter]
I: Really? [Laughter]
AH: No, I've got another place in north London as well but if I do get relatively stuck here, most of the time I tend to stay here.
I: So working here has actually drawn you to the area.
AH: Yes indeed, yes indeed.
I: Okay, all right, we start talking about the restaurant itself right, could you just tell me I mean I'll be asking Fred and Chris about their version of events when I interview them. But from your perspective, how did Shanghai come about? [00:12:19]
AH: Well it was, how should I put this? We very obviously-- this place came up at the sort of time and we've seen the place and it is sort of very it's very fascinating because of-- it's a listed building greatly listed and and the tiles and the walls and the mirrors and everything very fascinating inspired us you know this Shanghai theme and after we look at the place we sit down and think about what sort of things do we want to do and of this Shanghai's idea came up and it fit into the area and the building itself. So work along that line, try to have some talk to different people and you try to get to know the area and obviously more information from Mr. Cooke on those and…Sorry there was another point I want to cover, I forgot. It’s about the...yes, the Shanghai cuisine. It’s [that] you don't actually find any Shanghai restaurant in London really, just Shanghai food but if you go back to the far east like in Hong Kong for example you see tons and millions of Shanghai restaurants in Hong Kong. The reason for that is, Shanghai cuisine is not just for [the] Shanghai area, it covers all the area around Shanghai. Obviously, you know, Shanghai is a port city and it's very famous food there is actually eel. So, it gives that kind of feeling that for people who said, ‘Shanghai eel, yes, this is the right place for us’ and at the same time, we want to bring a new cuisine to London. So, so that's--
I: Okay. I mean that's actually might have answered my next question which was I mean if you're looking to open a new restaurant and then it wouldn't, well certainly to me, it wouldn't seem the obvious place to pick on a listed building with beautiful decor which you can't actually change if you're wanting to open a new thing. [00:14:34]
AH: That's right.
I: I mean, is that why it did actually appear as an option to you then? [00:14:56]
AH: Well, it's obviously that if something you can't change is a problem to start with is something you have to look into, rather-- whether or not it's suitable for your idea. Then that is a matter of your company, within your companies. Would you be able to fit into the place or the area suitable for your company. So that was a point that we struggle [with] at that time. We have to think about [it] deeply, is that what we're looking for and can we progress from there? Obviously that-- you know we make the right decision at that time. And so we're here now to talk to you today.
I: But the connection between Shanghai now and F.Cookes before is the eel then because-- [00:15:38]
AH: It's sort of like, eel is the link. It's a link. It's a link. And obviously we love the place, it’s so beautiful.
I: Okay, just for the tape, just because I don't know if we've got a good sound bite. Could you say something along those lines? You know, because that's, I mean, I didn't know that before so and it's something that probably interests people who wouldn’t realize that that Shanghai cuisine has anything to do with eels. [00:15:54]
AH: Right. Okay. Basically, Shanghai is-- right I’ll start from the beginning. We don't have any Shanghai cuisine in London. So when we took the place on, then we think about things along that line; have a Shanghai cuisine in London, bring a new cuisine in London. Shanghai is a port city and the most popular and famous dish actually is eel. So which actually link up Shanghai and this listed building 41 Kingsland High Street. That's the link in between.
I: Okay. Thanks.
AH: I forgot what I said now. [Laughter]
I: That's all right. That's great. That's the sort of thing I wanted. So that's the link. I mean, what you've done with the place now is you've sort of, you’ve taken some of what was here before and added your own kind of sort of flavors, if you like to it. I mean but that means that you're now part of a, you know, a very long established east end tradition as well. So how does-- is that important to you and to the organization that you're sort of continuing and adapting and diversifying? [00:16:56]
AH: It is indeed. It is indeed because as I mentioned that before, because of the link, it's a great listed building, it’s very fascinating to have a restaurant.
AH: Okay. Sorry.
I: It's all right.
AH: I'm starting now.
I: Um, do you want me to stop for a sec?
AH: No, you can remind me [of] the question.
I: How important is it to you that you're now part of the tradition that Fred and Chris's family have been continuing? [00:17:50]
AH: It's very important and it's a great honor and challenge really because this place is established since 1862, is a long way. People knows who's in the area, knows this place and Mr. Cooke. So we have a-- it's a major challenge to change the people's taste bud. Shanghai cuisine is very new in London as well. So obviously people around this area never tried them and it’s a very difficult and it’s a challenge for us to do that. But we think that we could tackle well here with these sort of things.
I: Okay, how would you say I mean you've talked a bit in--you mentioned you sort of touched on this already, but, what would you say is different about Shanghai to other restaurants, you know, not just in the area of the Chinese restaurants? I mean, is it just the building or is there more to it than that? [00:18:46]
I: It's a combination of both. I would think the building is unique and is very nice. I mean I'm sure 10 out of 10 people would say this is a very nice building. They kept it very nice as well. Food wise obviously is different as I mentioned that before that the cuisine itself is very unique. So that's-- both things I think is very important as well. And we try to move on a bit from there. Obviously we open new rooms and new areas within this building itself. We redecorate the back area, change it completely. We have more seating areas and another private room in there.
I: Okay. You were saying, I mean, you were saying what you serve here is not in England, what we generally refer to Chinese food as what what we really mean is Cantonese. What you serve here is cuisine specifically from the Shanghai area? [00:19:55]
AH: That's right. Regions, yeah.
I: What are the house specialities that you’ve got here? [00:20:16]
AH: Oh, there's tons. [Laughter]
I: Okay, what are your favorites? [Laughter] [00:20:21]
AH: Right from the top to the bottom. [Laughter] Okay...
I: Give me a couple of dishes which you would say would sum it up? [00:20:27]
AH: Well, I would say the Shanghai dumpling is a very standout cuisine as a dumpling wise because dumpling is [a] very delicate food. It's from [the] southern part of China up to the northern part that you get different kind[s] of dumplings and dim sum. So our grilled pork dumplings is one of the special ones, I would say that within the cuisine it sells. It sells the name Shanghai to people that give people [an] idea what sort of things it is. We also have different kind[s] of seafood and eel as well. You know we put the eel back on the menu. It suits the cuisine and the area and the building as well. So we have eel but we tackled [it] in a different way. For example, we deep fried [them] with salt and pepper and we have eel in exo sauce, which is [a] very special sauce. We done it in the back, mixed with dry seafood ingredients like dry streams, dry scallops and with some Chinese herbs and spices in that. So it's-- that's very different as well.
I: Another thing you've been talking about is you know the importance of the building and the fact that it is a beautiful building. You've obviously had to change it. That's right. To sort of meet the needs of your customers which are different from the previous customers here. But you've managed to retain a lot of the original features as well and integrated. How did you go about doing that? [00:21:39]
AH: Well, we had a team of people that we sat down to, you know, to think about that. What kind of things that we can do within the building because it's such a big, massive building. Obviously the front room and one of the VIP room[s] has to be the same as before because it's a listed building. So, we have to restore some of the feature[s] there. Like the old bar itself, it was-- we can't change that because it's listed things. So what we did was we have a bigger bar sort of like, there's a mold [that] sits on top of that. So we have a new bar in the old building but it have the old Shanghai film in there as well. So it won't stand out for something different but it will be there but you notice that it's something new really and we have the new dining room at the back as well with new double kitchen.
I: Okay. What was the dining room before? [00:23:01]
AH: [To Unknown Person] What was it before?
Unknown Person: Potato storage.
AH: Yeah, potato storage. [Laughter]
I: Potato storage, okay. [Laughter]
Unknown Person: We actually called it our wet store because it's where all the wet work would have been done i.e. preparation of potatoes and parsley, which was one of our main ingredients.
I: And the whole area was used for that restaurant seating area? [00:23:19]
AH: Yeah. Yeah. So we changed it to about 80 odd seatings now in that particular room. And then we have another VIP room on the other wing as well, the east wing which is about 40 people in that one as well.
I: Okay. How many people could you see? [00:23:36]
Unknown Person: I think we could see about 90.
I: Right. And that was because of the benches that you--
Unknown Person: Yes. The way it was set up. Yeah. But we didn't go out as far as these people. What they're using for a lot of dining areas. We use preparation areas.
I: Okay. Okay. Final thing. I mean, again, you've talked about this a little bit, but what would you say is Shanghai's relationship with Dalston and the surrounding area? Is there a way you could sort of recap that? [00:23:56]
AH: Well, we-- one of our philosophies is we want to work with the area at the same time. So we want to because as we mentioned that before we want to know the people here and we want to know our customer bridge the gap between us. So we don't want to be another Chinese restaurant in the area and people just come by, have the food and then go home. We don't want to be that. We want to [be] part of the community. That's what kind of image we want to give people. So we work with the local people like other businesses and we have a lot of people from the market and from all the shops around, we have a lot of friends around here.
I: And how do you think the-- I mean, you're representing a fairly specialist cuisine within an area which has got many, many specialist cuisines. So how do you think that fits in, you fit into that side of things? [00:24:55]
AH: Well, I would say that we are the pride of Hackney, if you want to use that name. Because not so long ago, about two months ago, we- three months actually- we got nominated for one of the oriental restaurants of the year in London that was run by the [inaudible] Carlton(?) [00:25:26] TV Evening Standard. So we basically want to give people [the] idea that no look Hackney got something here. You know, it's not just you come here and just the Dalston market and other good old store there. We want to show people that we're doing something in Hackney. We want to put Hackney back on the London's map, not just-- for the good reason.
I: So, in the future, I mean, well, first of all, what is it you think that makes Shanghai, because it clearly is popular. But it's not, it's quiet this afternoon. But if you come on a Friday or a Saturday night, I'm sure it’s absolutely heaving. What is it that you think makes it so popular? [00:25:57]
AH: First of all, you don't have too many big restaurant[s] in Dalston like our setup. We have the kind of cuisine that would attract people to come because something that different, that they wouldn’t have tried. Also that the building itself is a very good selling point. A lot of people come here to just look at the area, have the food and enjoy the atmosphere and our service are very different from the other Chinese restaurant[s] as well. Not like Chinatown in Gerrard Street, in and out type of thing. So that is very important for us and for the customer as well. And we have the two VIP room[s] that you can have your own private party here with the latest karaoke technology and systems here. And it's very up-to-date music as well. So Friday and Saturday is always buzzing. It’s part of that reason and we're constantly changing our menu and to fit in the taste bud these days. We constantly get to know the customers and what do they need and what kind of things we could offer them.
I: Okay. So I mean that's how you feel you're cutting edge at the moment.
AH: That's right.
I: How do you think obviously if you're successful because of these things, then other people are going to copy this and so you're going to have to come up with new ways of keeping your head. So, how are you going to-- how do you see yourself maintaining your cutting edge? [00:27:30]
AH: Well, the way to maintain is two things, is the front of the house. How do we deal with the customer? How do we train the staff to talk to the people? That is very important for us, that the service side and the other thing is like the cuisine that we made is always changing. It's always like I have all the others, [a] different kind of a new sauce comes out or new combination with meat and ingredients. For example, we have ostrich on the menu at the moment, we have turbot, we have eel. Not every single thing that you see in a Chinese restaurant in London. So we want to be something different all the time that attracts [a] crowd.
I: Okay. Where do you see the future taking Shanghai and the group itself? I mean, is your current vision to concentrate on consolidating the four restaurants or are you looking to open other areas? [00:28:34]
AH: Obviously in the company, we want to expand in different directions. All the restaurant[s] we have are different names and the reason for that is because we have different characters. But we all share the same philosophy like we mentioned earlier on, that how we serve the customer, how do we bridge the gap and what kind of cuisine we serve. So that is what we-- our strong point really. So we want to keep doing that.
I: Okay. All right. Well, that's great. Is there anything else you wanted to say about the restaurant before I turn the tape off? [00:29:27]
AH: No, not at the moment. I think [we] cover most of the things really.
I: Okay. Thanks very much.
AH: Thank you.
END OF INTERVIEW [00:29:43]
Andrew Hung (AH): Right. That's 25th November 1971 and it's in Hong Kong.
I: Okay. Before we get on to, sort of, talking more about the Shanghai restaurant, just get a bit of background about you and where you're coming from. So I mean, first of all, could you maybe tell me a few things about your family? [00:00:27]
AH. Not much to say about my family really. Well, I grew up in Hong Kong and that's where my family is at the moment. But they're actually thinking about moving back to China for some reason, which I don't know. But I chose to come here and do my study here about 14 years ago.
I: Okay. So what were your interests before you came here in terms of education then if you were? [00:01:06]
AH: Well all I know [is] that I wanted to become an architect, funny enough that I studied architecture engineering in university. After I graduated from Westminster, I took up a job here and here ever since really.
I: Okay. All right we'll go through that because I mean I've sort of worked out some questions on those notes. But one of the things that in your, sort of the, publicity biography sort of thing that we get given out, is you mentioned your father and the fact that he founded a restaurant chain or catering chain in- [00:01:28]
AH: Oh you want to talk about that bit?
I: Yeah I was wondering if you’d tell me a bit about that [crosstalk] [00:01:50]
AH: Sure. Yeah. Well, my dad used to have a few restaurants in Hong Kong. He started with Cantonese cuisine and Sichuan and then started [to] move on to [the] more vegetarian side as well. At that time, they're very popular in Hong Kong in the 70s and in the 80s as well. People think about … they think about more like healthy food and as you know that Buddhists in Hong Kong are very popular, so they more or less try to find some way to cater those people as well as giving people [the] idea that healthy vegetarian food. They have a lot of more meat dishes like more chicken, more duck, more fish, but all based on vegetables and that sort of idea really, fruit and vegetables. My dad was into those things, so he start[ed] off a new chain in the mid-80s. And I was there to do a bit of helping out, doing pieces.
I: Okay so what sorts of things did you do, being a helping hand? [00:02:56]
AH: Just very general things you know, from like being … bring teacups out and cleaning the tables and things like that. So start with very basic things; try to get to know the trade and help the people out really.
I: Okay. And then so you moved to … what was the reason then for you moving to Britain? [00:03:15]
AH: Well to study, to fulfill my dream to become an architect, really.
I: Okay. And why did you choose Britain as opposed to anywhere else? [00:03:25]
AH: Well, because my uncles are in here they [lived] in England for quite a while and, my aunt. So rather than go to somewhere that [has] no relatives and friends, so I chose to come to England instead.
I: And you went to Westminster because that was where there's a good course there? [00:03:39]
AH: That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
I: Okay. Okay so, when you … from what I understand while you were at university you kind of took a job as - [00:03:47]
AH: That's right, yeah. Well what happens, as you know, that when you're studying university you try to make ends meet at the same time as studying. So that's what I did - get a weekend part-time job and study, you know, the rest of the week and that's how I got into the trade as well. After I graduate and people asked me to chip in more hours before I moved on [to] the next things because after that I was thinking about ‘should I have moved on somewhere else to study or should I have stayed in England?’. So that was the time that I involved more in this trade.
I: So was your first job in that area with The Weng Wah Group or was it in another restaurant? [00:04:35]
AH: No actually, I [worked] also in a couple other places beforehand, similar setup, in London as well. It was very coincident I got this job [at] that sort of time because friends of friends is a big friend. So, get to know him and we got on quite well and he invite me back to involve a little bit more in the business.
I: Okay. Right. Okay. So I mean you said you wanted to be … you were basically wanting to be an architect originally? [00:05:08]
AH: Yeah, that's right.
I: That was your sort of life plan. So when did you kind of get to the point where you thought maybe that's not what I'm going to end up doing? [00:05:16]
AH: It's sort of like when you get more involved in certain things and you start to develop that kind of bonding with it. Selling tables in the restaurant is kind of quite fascinating because you're meeting different kinds of people all the time constantly. All the tables, next table’s different from next and you try to get to know different kinds of people. I guess the philosophy of the whole group is very like mine. So that's why I like it.
I: Okay. So tell me … I mean another thing it said in the sort of information about you is that you progressed through the sort of promotional ladder in the trade. [00:05:56]
AH: That's right.
I: So what was the progression that you did? What was the job that you did and what did they involve? [00:06:08]
AH: Again, that I start from very basic things you know. So try to get to know every single bits and pieces at the same time. I was involved in more or less everything now. I try to know every single bits even how to wash a plate, how to put the things in the right place as well and like the bar works, help out in the kitchen bits and pieces; try to know every single things, you know? I like to consolidate my background before I moved on. So that's why I chose to do that from the bottom rather than take up a middle or management process straight away after I graduate and try to get to know different kind[s] of people, work with other people, understand the philosophy behind the whole group. That's what I did.
I: So you worked your way up through The Weng Wah Group. [00:07:05]
AH: That's right.
I: You came to Weng Wah when you were still relatively junior. [00:07:10]
AH: That's right, yeah.
I: Okay. Before you took this post, did you work as a manager of a restaurant? [00:07:13]
AH: Yes, I was a manager in the restaurant for Weng Wah specifically for quite a while.
I: That's in Belsize Park? [00:07:30]
AH: That's in Belsize Park, North London. And when the company expand[ed], I gradually get [a] promotion. More involved in the company set up like decision makings and where do you want us to go and sort of like the direction of the restaurants and the company.
I: Okay. So, how do you think-- obviously because you haven't just kind of done a course and then come in right at the top, you've actually sort of worked your way through and you … how do you think that helps you to manage the service? [00:07:49]
AH: Well, it actually gives you a more in-depth idea about the whole setup, you know, right from the little things, you know, how do you put a fork and up to how to greet a customer at the front of the door. It’s generally when you tell people to do something, then you have a more better background to understand. Sometime[s] when you move to a senior position, you might not understand what [is] underneath you. What do they need to do? What sort of things they need to face when you do so, when they want to tackle some problems that give me a better background to do that really.
I: I mean does it give you a feeling that you're more capable of understanding how your staff feel when you're asking them to do things? [00:08:41]
AH: Oh yes, oh yes. Definitely, definitely.
I: Okay. What's basically your basic philosophy on how you should run a restaurant business? [00:08:51]
AH: Well, it's very simple. It's to get to know your customer. That is what I think is very important - try to bridge the gap between the customers and ourselves. We, in the 21st century, will want to, you know, give people a different platform in terms of restaurant business. We don't want to be like any other cafe chain or another restaurant chain which have [the] same name all the way through, serving the similar kind of food, exactly the same menu as the others. We try to have different menus and different cuisine [in] different areas. So all the restaurants have its own characters, like Shanghai itself, have a very standout and unique character compared to the other restaurants in the area or in our own group. So that is very important - get to know customers, know what they need. We always emphasise that we tailor the menu for the customer. Try to know that what they want more than giving them what do we have. So we might have, you know, let's say for example 50 dishes but we actually could change it, put hundreds and hundreds of different kinds of dishes for them. Just different combination of sauces and texture of meat and ingredients.
I: So, how do you know what … If you give them what they want, how do you know what the customer wants? [00:10:16]
AH: We talk to the customers. When we first came, the customer come in and we try to notice that what kind of food they like. We talk to them in between, see how do they feel about the food and the service and all different kinds of aspects of restaurants and the experience that they have here. We try to act on those point that they give us and then either we do it straight away something we could, like if they have certain things they think it's not what they want they want something else if and we try to help them to explore different kind of sauces or texture of meat and ingredients and so we remember them next time when they come back and then we try to think about something different along that line for them. So to give the people the idea that you care about them.
I: Okay. Just a couple of final questions about you before we start talking about this restaurant. Whereabouts--you're obviously, if you're managing or you're overseeing the management, is it four restaurants? [00:11:18]
AH: That's right. Yeah.
I: Where are you actually based? Today you're clearly working here. [00:11:30]
AH: [Laughter] Well, we always say the Weng Wah, the Belsize site is the flagship because that's the beginning, that's the first restaurant we have. But Shanghai is the head office because we had an office at the bank and even though I'm in and out but my main core of business is here.
I: So, whereabouts do you live? Do you live nearby or? [00:11:58]
AH: Well, upstairs. [Laughter]
I: Really? [Laughter]
AH: No, I've got another place in north London as well but if I do get relatively stuck here, most of the time I tend to stay here.
I: So working here has actually drawn you to the area.
AH: Yes indeed, yes indeed.
I: Okay, all right, we start talking about the restaurant itself right, could you just tell me I mean I'll be asking Fred and Chris about their version of events when I interview them. But from your perspective, how did Shanghai come about? [00:12:19]
AH: Well it was, how should I put this? We very obviously-- this place came up at the sort of time and we've seen the place and it is sort of very it's very fascinating because of-- it's a listed building greatly listed and and the tiles and the walls and the mirrors and everything very fascinating inspired us you know this Shanghai theme and after we look at the place we sit down and think about what sort of things do we want to do and of this Shanghai's idea came up and it fit into the area and the building itself. So work along that line, try to have some talk to different people and you try to get to know the area and obviously more information from Mr. Cooke on those and…Sorry there was another point I want to cover, I forgot. It’s about the...yes, the Shanghai cuisine. It’s [that] you don't actually find any Shanghai restaurant in London really, just Shanghai food but if you go back to the far east like in Hong Kong for example you see tons and millions of Shanghai restaurants in Hong Kong. The reason for that is, Shanghai cuisine is not just for [the] Shanghai area, it covers all the area around Shanghai. Obviously, you know, Shanghai is a port city and it's very famous food there is actually eel. So, it gives that kind of feeling that for people who said, ‘Shanghai eel, yes, this is the right place for us’ and at the same time, we want to bring a new cuisine to London. So, so that's--
I: Okay. I mean that's actually might have answered my next question which was I mean if you're looking to open a new restaurant and then it wouldn't, well certainly to me, it wouldn't seem the obvious place to pick on a listed building with beautiful decor which you can't actually change if you're wanting to open a new thing. [00:14:34]
AH: That's right.
I: I mean, is that why it did actually appear as an option to you then? [00:14:56]
AH: Well, it's obviously that if something you can't change is a problem to start with is something you have to look into, rather-- whether or not it's suitable for your idea. Then that is a matter of your company, within your companies. Would you be able to fit into the place or the area suitable for your company. So that was a point that we struggle [with] at that time. We have to think about [it] deeply, is that what we're looking for and can we progress from there? Obviously that-- you know we make the right decision at that time. And so we're here now to talk to you today.
I: But the connection between Shanghai now and F.Cookes before is the eel then because-- [00:15:38]
AH: It's sort of like, eel is the link. It's a link. It's a link. And obviously we love the place, it’s so beautiful.
I: Okay, just for the tape, just because I don't know if we've got a good sound bite. Could you say something along those lines? You know, because that's, I mean, I didn't know that before so and it's something that probably interests people who wouldn’t realize that that Shanghai cuisine has anything to do with eels. [00:15:54]
AH: Right. Okay. Basically, Shanghai is-- right I’ll start from the beginning. We don't have any Shanghai cuisine in London. So when we took the place on, then we think about things along that line; have a Shanghai cuisine in London, bring a new cuisine in London. Shanghai is a port city and the most popular and famous dish actually is eel. So which actually link up Shanghai and this listed building 41 Kingsland High Street. That's the link in between.
I: Okay. Thanks.
AH: I forgot what I said now. [Laughter]
I: That's all right. That's great. That's the sort of thing I wanted. So that's the link. I mean, what you've done with the place now is you've sort of, you’ve taken some of what was here before and added your own kind of sort of flavors, if you like to it. I mean but that means that you're now part of a, you know, a very long established east end tradition as well. So how does-- is that important to you and to the organization that you're sort of continuing and adapting and diversifying? [00:16:56]
AH: It is indeed. It is indeed because as I mentioned that before, because of the link, it's a great listed building, it’s very fascinating to have a restaurant.
AH: Okay. Sorry.
I: It's all right.
AH: I'm starting now.
I: Um, do you want me to stop for a sec?
AH: No, you can remind me [of] the question.
I: How important is it to you that you're now part of the tradition that Fred and Chris's family have been continuing? [00:17:50]
AH: It's very important and it's a great honor and challenge really because this place is established since 1862, is a long way. People knows who's in the area, knows this place and Mr. Cooke. So we have a-- it's a major challenge to change the people's taste bud. Shanghai cuisine is very new in London as well. So obviously people around this area never tried them and it’s a very difficult and it’s a challenge for us to do that. But we think that we could tackle well here with these sort of things.
I: Okay, how would you say I mean you've talked a bit in--you mentioned you sort of touched on this already, but, what would you say is different about Shanghai to other restaurants, you know, not just in the area of the Chinese restaurants? I mean, is it just the building or is there more to it than that? [00:18:46]
I: It's a combination of both. I would think the building is unique and is very nice. I mean I'm sure 10 out of 10 people would say this is a very nice building. They kept it very nice as well. Food wise obviously is different as I mentioned that before that the cuisine itself is very unique. So that's-- both things I think is very important as well. And we try to move on a bit from there. Obviously we open new rooms and new areas within this building itself. We redecorate the back area, change it completely. We have more seating areas and another private room in there.
I: Okay. You were saying, I mean, you were saying what you serve here is not in England, what we generally refer to Chinese food as what what we really mean is Cantonese. What you serve here is cuisine specifically from the Shanghai area? [00:19:55]
AH: That's right. Regions, yeah.
I: What are the house specialities that you’ve got here? [00:20:16]
AH: Oh, there's tons. [Laughter]
I: Okay, what are your favorites? [Laughter] [00:20:21]
AH: Right from the top to the bottom. [Laughter] Okay...
I: Give me a couple of dishes which you would say would sum it up? [00:20:27]
AH: Well, I would say the Shanghai dumpling is a very standout cuisine as a dumpling wise because dumpling is [a] very delicate food. It's from [the] southern part of China up to the northern part that you get different kind[s] of dumplings and dim sum. So our grilled pork dumplings is one of the special ones, I would say that within the cuisine it sells. It sells the name Shanghai to people that give people [an] idea what sort of things it is. We also have different kind[s] of seafood and eel as well. You know we put the eel back on the menu. It suits the cuisine and the area and the building as well. So we have eel but we tackled [it] in a different way. For example, we deep fried [them] with salt and pepper and we have eel in exo sauce, which is [a] very special sauce. We done it in the back, mixed with dry seafood ingredients like dry streams, dry scallops and with some Chinese herbs and spices in that. So it's-- that's very different as well.
I: Another thing you've been talking about is you know the importance of the building and the fact that it is a beautiful building. You've obviously had to change it. That's right. To sort of meet the needs of your customers which are different from the previous customers here. But you've managed to retain a lot of the original features as well and integrated. How did you go about doing that? [00:21:39]
AH: Well, we had a team of people that we sat down to, you know, to think about that. What kind of things that we can do within the building because it's such a big, massive building. Obviously the front room and one of the VIP room[s] has to be the same as before because it's a listed building. So, we have to restore some of the feature[s] there. Like the old bar itself, it was-- we can't change that because it's listed things. So what we did was we have a bigger bar sort of like, there's a mold [that] sits on top of that. So we have a new bar in the old building but it have the old Shanghai film in there as well. So it won't stand out for something different but it will be there but you notice that it's something new really and we have the new dining room at the back as well with new double kitchen.
I: Okay. What was the dining room before? [00:23:01]
AH: [To Unknown Person] What was it before?
Unknown Person: Potato storage.
AH: Yeah, potato storage. [Laughter]
I: Potato storage, okay. [Laughter]
Unknown Person: We actually called it our wet store because it's where all the wet work would have been done i.e. preparation of potatoes and parsley, which was one of our main ingredients.
I: And the whole area was used for that restaurant seating area? [00:23:19]
AH: Yeah. Yeah. So we changed it to about 80 odd seatings now in that particular room. And then we have another VIP room on the other wing as well, the east wing which is about 40 people in that one as well.
I: Okay. How many people could you see? [00:23:36]
Unknown Person: I think we could see about 90.
I: Right. And that was because of the benches that you--
Unknown Person: Yes. The way it was set up. Yeah. But we didn't go out as far as these people. What they're using for a lot of dining areas. We use preparation areas.
I: Okay. Okay. Final thing. I mean, again, you've talked about this a little bit, but what would you say is Shanghai's relationship with Dalston and the surrounding area? Is there a way you could sort of recap that? [00:23:56]
AH: Well, we-- one of our philosophies is we want to work with the area at the same time. So we want to because as we mentioned that before we want to know the people here and we want to know our customer bridge the gap between us. So we don't want to be another Chinese restaurant in the area and people just come by, have the food and then go home. We don't want to be that. We want to [be] part of the community. That's what kind of image we want to give people. So we work with the local people like other businesses and we have a lot of people from the market and from all the shops around, we have a lot of friends around here.
I: And how do you think the-- I mean, you're representing a fairly specialist cuisine within an area which has got many, many specialist cuisines. So how do you think that fits in, you fit into that side of things? [00:24:55]
AH: Well, I would say that we are the pride of Hackney, if you want to use that name. Because not so long ago, about two months ago, we- three months actually- we got nominated for one of the oriental restaurants of the year in London that was run by the [inaudible] Carlton(?) [00:25:26] TV Evening Standard. So we basically want to give people [the] idea that no look Hackney got something here. You know, it's not just you come here and just the Dalston market and other good old store there. We want to show people that we're doing something in Hackney. We want to put Hackney back on the London's map, not just-- for the good reason.
I: So, in the future, I mean, well, first of all, what is it you think that makes Shanghai, because it clearly is popular. But it's not, it's quiet this afternoon. But if you come on a Friday or a Saturday night, I'm sure it’s absolutely heaving. What is it that you think makes it so popular? [00:25:57]
AH: First of all, you don't have too many big restaurant[s] in Dalston like our setup. We have the kind of cuisine that would attract people to come because something that different, that they wouldn’t have tried. Also that the building itself is a very good selling point. A lot of people come here to just look at the area, have the food and enjoy the atmosphere and our service are very different from the other Chinese restaurant[s] as well. Not like Chinatown in Gerrard Street, in and out type of thing. So that is very important for us and for the customer as well. And we have the two VIP room[s] that you can have your own private party here with the latest karaoke technology and systems here. And it's very up-to-date music as well. So Friday and Saturday is always buzzing. It’s part of that reason and we're constantly changing our menu and to fit in the taste bud these days. We constantly get to know the customers and what do they need and what kind of things we could offer them.
I: Okay. So I mean that's how you feel you're cutting edge at the moment.
AH: That's right.
I: How do you think obviously if you're successful because of these things, then other people are going to copy this and so you're going to have to come up with new ways of keeping your head. So, how are you going to-- how do you see yourself maintaining your cutting edge? [00:27:30]
AH: Well, the way to maintain is two things, is the front of the house. How do we deal with the customer? How do we train the staff to talk to the people? That is very important for us, that the service side and the other thing is like the cuisine that we made is always changing. It's always like I have all the others, [a] different kind of a new sauce comes out or new combination with meat and ingredients. For example, we have ostrich on the menu at the moment, we have turbot, we have eel. Not every single thing that you see in a Chinese restaurant in London. So we want to be something different all the time that attracts [a] crowd.
I: Okay. Where do you see the future taking Shanghai and the group itself? I mean, is your current vision to concentrate on consolidating the four restaurants or are you looking to open other areas? [00:28:34]
AH: Obviously in the company, we want to expand in different directions. All the restaurant[s] we have are different names and the reason for that is because we have different characters. But we all share the same philosophy like we mentioned earlier on, that how we serve the customer, how do we bridge the gap and what kind of cuisine we serve. So that is what we-- our strong point really. So we want to keep doing that.
I: Okay. All right. Well, that's great. Is there anything else you wanted to say about the restaurant before I turn the tape off? [00:29:27]
AH: No, not at the moment. I think [we] cover most of the things really.
I: Okay. Thanks very much.
AH: Thank you.
END OF INTERVIEW [00:29:43]