Oral History Interview - Betty Hlela
Object
Audio file
Object number
2026.94
Physical Description
Audio recording (.wav) of an oral history interview with Betty Hlela. Interviewer Alex Sidney. Betty is the founder of Zenzele and local craftswoman.
Total length - 37 minutes, 37 seconds.
Total length - 37 minutes, 37 seconds.
Description
Summary:
[00:00:06] Inclusion in the museum exhibition. Living in hackney
[00:01:55] Finding and taking waste fabric from a factory. Stall in Covent Garden.
[00:04:22] Zenzele project. Born in Hackney. Work with other recyclers. Running workshops. Mix between British and South African style. Help from HCVS (Hackney Community and Voluntary Sector). Opportunities in Hackney. Work ethic.
[00:07:36] Work with various people in Hackney. Workshops. Raising awareness for recycling. Rejuvenating waste. Friends made. Recycling in South Africa. Stall at the V&A (Victoria and Albert museum).
[00:11:45] Artistic inspiration. Encounter at the Alexander McQueen studio in Shoreditch. People who have helped her with recycling.
[00:14:52] Places she has gone to in Hackney. Exhibition she contributed to at Hackney Museum. Projects she has worked on.
[00:18:10] What she likes about the people of Hackney. People she has met in Hackney. People who have helped her.
[00:21:41] What she misses about Hackney when in South Africa. CIDA (Cultural Industries Development Agency) business course. Growing up in poverty.
[00:25:55] How she describes Hackney. Artists she has met.
[00:27:27] Relationship to other artists.
[00:29:15] Influences on her work. Kenton Road music hall. Brick Lane. Hackney Town Hall.
[00:32:04] Clothing industry in Hackney. Receiving material from people.
[00:33:11] Feedback she gets from people. Her motivation. Receiving leather from a girl on Brick Lane.
[00:36:07] How people feel when she recycles their materials.
[00:00:06] Inclusion in the museum exhibition. Living in hackney
[00:01:55] Finding and taking waste fabric from a factory. Stall in Covent Garden.
[00:04:22] Zenzele project. Born in Hackney. Work with other recyclers. Running workshops. Mix between British and South African style. Help from HCVS (Hackney Community and Voluntary Sector). Opportunities in Hackney. Work ethic.
[00:07:36] Work with various people in Hackney. Workshops. Raising awareness for recycling. Rejuvenating waste. Friends made. Recycling in South Africa. Stall at the V&A (Victoria and Albert museum).
[00:11:45] Artistic inspiration. Encounter at the Alexander McQueen studio in Shoreditch. People who have helped her with recycling.
[00:14:52] Places she has gone to in Hackney. Exhibition she contributed to at Hackney Museum. Projects she has worked on.
[00:18:10] What she likes about the people of Hackney. People she has met in Hackney. People who have helped her.
[00:21:41] What she misses about Hackney when in South Africa. CIDA (Cultural Industries Development Agency) business course. Growing up in poverty.
[00:25:55] How she describes Hackney. Artists she has met.
[00:27:27] Relationship to other artists.
[00:29:15] Influences on her work. Kenton Road music hall. Brick Lane. Hackney Town Hall.
[00:32:04] Clothing industry in Hackney. Receiving material from people.
[00:33:11] Feedback she gets from people. Her motivation. Receiving leather from a girl on Brick Lane.
[00:36:07] How people feel when she recycles their materials.
Associated Organisation
Zenzele Women's Arts And Crafts (Association)
Associated Person
Hlela, Betty Nosipho (Association)
On display?
No
Inscription
Transcript of Interview with Betty Hlela
Interviewer. [00:00:06] Really just so that, from what we say I can kind of actually kind of go back —.
Betty Hlela (BH). Extract —.
Interviewer. Extract. And what we will be doing is putting kind of quotes, and things people have said on labels, in the exhibition. On just the last thing, in the exhibition there will be object in cases. Obviously, it's a museum and we are kind of linking it into objects. What we are asking is everybody to choose an object, or maybe a couple of objects, which in some way reflect what they like about Hackney. It can be as direct as you like, it's kind of real free, you can choose the object and we can get onto that later we will have a chat about objects.
BH. Okay.
Interviewer. That's kind of how it's going to work. Then there will be pictures as well. After this we will make an appointment and get a photograph of you, that’s going to be in the exhibition —.
BH. I am going to be in the —.
Interviewer. Absolutely.
BH. Okay. I mean, as I was saying that, I mean, for me living in Hackney, nearly half my life, I came here as a semi-adult, and I have lived in other parts of London, but for a very short period. And whenever I change places, I came back to Hackney. My last place I have lived down there in Shoreditch for the past 20 years. To my biggest surprise I lived next to garment industry factories.
[00:01:55] One day, I mean, I was going through a very bad period, and I walked up the street and I saw this big van, reversing into one big tip. What they tipped there really turned my life. This is what has turned me into a fabric recycling person. Because from there, the van reversed into this big tip and it tipped one sewing machine, and it tipped so much fabric, it took me half the night moving these things from there to the factory, because I was trying my uppermost to work this thing out before the vulture came in to pick up this thing. There was cotton there, there was pieces of material, I am not talking small pieces, I am talking four, five meters. I took these things back there and I thought, Lord, are they sure, because I asked this guy, “Are you sure you are throwing these things away?” The guy says “Yeah, the van is going to come and pick it up in the morning if we don't pick it up.” So I picked these things up and I went home and I just thought - yes, this is the end of all my up and down, looking for what I want to do. From that machine, I went and asked a guy down in Hoxton who fixed sewing machines, came in and said it only needs a few spares. I sat down, I started — [sewing noises]. I used to have a stall in Covent Garden selling mixed and matched shirts, African shirts and what is called a cloth cap. I have never looked back. To an extent I have made friends with people, one in Orsman Road. He said to me, “You don't need to go to the bin anymore. Come in, we will put bits and pieces of material on the side.”
Interviewer. Oh that’s really nice.
BH. That is why my project is called Zenzele meaning in Zulu, “Do it yourself.”
Q. Is that how you spell it is it —? [00:04:22]
BH. Z-E-N-Z-E-L-E.
Q. And that means do it yourself? [00:04:27]
BH. Do it yourself.
Q. So that would be a response you would give to someone who said to you, “Oh can you do this for me?” You would just say that as well? [00:04:29]
BH. Yeah. From 11 o'clock I worked until 5:00 a.m. picking those bits of, and guess what I used as a mode of transport? I used a Sainsbury’s trolley, up and down, up and down, yeah.
Interviewer. That’s really nice.
BH. Okay. Zenzele gave birth to one fantastic label called Born in Hackney.
Interviewer. That’s perfect.
BH. Yeah. So till today I have been working with other fellow recyclers, one of them is L Crep? [00:05:14] East London recycling company up in Clapton, run by a tall Scotsman called Cam Matheson. Those are the people who have been helping me and trying to help me with running workshops, although I run workshops down there, but now, I have started running around with a little bag with some pieces of material, just to teach in order to keep the awareness plus this is how I earn a living. Luckily I was born and brought up in South Africa. So I match my Britishness with the South African and out comes Zenzele and Born in Hackney, because some of the bags now have taken a turn of depicting little bits of beadwork and everything, you know, to make them stand out.
Interviewer. Yeah.
BH. But this is what I love about Hackney, because once you do something, you know you can go and apply for little funds here and there. It’s up to you how you push yourself.
Interviewer. Yeah.
BH. So, I have been helped by people like HCVS (Hackney Community and Voluntary Sector) who have introduced me to Hackney Cultural Forum and I am getting bits and pieces that is what has kept me going and nobody will move me from Hackney, no way.
Q. There is opportunities in Hackney… ?. [00:06:48]
BH. So many opportunities, but it's up to you and your elbow grease, you have got to keep on pushing.
Q. Yeah. That’s always true, isn’t it —? [00:06:56]
BH. My grandma used to say - people never give a lift to somebody who is sitting down, but if you are standing they make [interviewer and BH laughing], exactly. To me, I am like someone who is standing there like a … People are saying “we have seen this woman”, if you can ask a lot of people, a lot of people know me from 1996, trying to push this Zenzele and this Born in Hackney, I have been pushing and pushing, because I love it.
Interviewer. Yeah, that’s right.
BH. Yeah, I love it, although I am not a millionaire, I thought maybe by year 2005, I will be a millionaire, but —.
Interviewer. Rubbish, yeah. [Interviewer and BH laughing]
BH. Maybe I will be a billionaire, who knows.
Q. Maybe. Who did you do the workshops with? [00:07:36]
BH. Hackney is a very diverse community. I have worked with a series of people. Even my workshop here, I mean, there was a mixture of people from my people, to Asians, to your people, to everybody else that were here. I go to schools, I work a lot with the Ecology Centre near Arsenal Station. There I get loads and loads of different people. Even in the studio when we advertise we get a series of people, different people.
Interviewer. Because there is so much interest in recycling anyway now and reuse —.
BH. No, because the awareness is beginning to pick up. People always, I remember when we were doing door-to-door, people always used to say, “What are you going to do with this rubbish?” We say “hey, we don’t call it rubbish, we call it waste,” because it's going to come back to your house again through the backdoor without even you realising that this is something that you put in the box two weeks ago. And they said, “What do you mean?” I said, “Okay, come down to the studio, yeah. The newspaper you are reading is the newspaper that you put in and it has been rejuvenated and it comes back to you, even the paper that you put in the printer.” “Is that so?” I say “Yeah.” So that’s why we keep on and on and on. People come in and drop things there. I mean like, next month in November we are going to have one massive workshop of quilting, because quilting does not mean that you need to go and buy a certain piece of material. You just put in a lot of other things and you draw this big picture and then you come out with something big. I can't go and live in Chelsea because [uncertain noises], but Hackney, I am at home.
Interviewer. Yeah, that's really good.
BH. I am at home.
[Cross Talk]
Interviewer. These are just a framework to get things going, but that’s been really brilliant.
BH. I have made so many friends, to an extent, I have made friends with people who run second-hand shops, people who do jumble sales, because we have, I have started this recycling here and in South Africa way, I mean, we have just baptised what we have been doing over the years. I mean we come from Africa, I went to school with a pair of shoes that used to be sewn with a needle and on hand-me-downs, so that was a recycling. So recycling in South Africa is not something new. However, now with me here, I see things and I take them down there and they do them up. We have got a stall in, at the V&A on this Saturday. Some of the things that I am going to show there are recycled clothes that I took from here to South Africa, washed, ironed and beaded, I call it African culture.
Q. And then bring it back? [00:10:55]
BH. Now, it's just like, “Oh wow”, this and in some other people's eyes it’s, honestly, it is so beautiful. They have beaded it up and it's been sewn nicely, yay.
Q. That’s the stuff that was thrown away? [00:11:13]
BH. Because I mean, there is a lot of…, people always think that, oh South Africa is free. I am not saying it's poor, but there are some other sections whereby it hasn't filtered down. I.e. there is a lot of children who are orphaned due to this AIDS sketch. So, when we take things down there, they take what they can take, and they recycle the other things. They turn it into sleeping things, and some of them, they make for me and I bring back and I sell you know it’s to and fro.
Q. Absolutely, it helps everyone. Where do you think your artistic inspiration comes from in Hackney? I mean, for the things you make, you know the “I Love Hackney” or the “Made in Hackney” label, where did that come from? This sort of artistic inspiration for the things you make? [00:11:45]
BH. Well, I came here through, I mean, into this country as an artist, as a dancer. We made our own costumes. When I saw that big van, that is the big van that I saw on that night, and I started working from 9 o'clock till 6:00 a.m. moving these things, so that was my inspiration. At home in Shoreditch, there is this guy, Alexander McQueen, he used to have a studio down there, and I used to pass by and see all those beautiful clothes and think, how can I do this, because I love clothes, and I love shoes. But I did not have the means of buying a sewing machine, I didn't have any means of buying materials. But that day it was like somebody said, “Listen, just move, just squeeze yourself through there and there is your dream”, and there was my dream.
Interviewer. Well that’s brilliant.
BH. Yeah. Down there is this posh guy Mr. McQueen himself, and here there’s these factories, even the Burberry Factory down in Frederick Terrace. I go there and say to the boss, “Hi boss, can I go into your bin.” Before he used to say, “No,” but one day I just decided, “Me, you can never say no to me, if I want something, I want it.” I went there with a handbag. I went at night and I jumped into the bin and I picked up this big bag of fabric off cuts, and I made a bag. One day I knocked in his office around about two (2pm), and I said, “Excuse me, can I see the garment?” He said, “God.” “You remember, you chased me from your bin. I went in the night this is the bag that I made.” The guy says, “Come on, okay now take everything you want.” Yes, I’ve got a Burberry bag.
Interviewer. That is such a good way of [laughing].
BH. Yeah, because I wanted to show him that I am not just taking them, just to be nasty. I showed him that these are the tools of my art, I need to do something that is going to stand out.
Interviewer. Yeah, that's brilliant. That's a very unusual story. He must have been really surprised that day, you know. That’s…
BH. I mean, with my recycling, I can write big books, you know, because sometimes I used to go down there in the evening and I meet people, the people who sleep in the street and they helped me push the trolley because they think I am one of them. They say, “Okay, darling, we’ll help you.” There is another Scotsman who used to sleep rough there, he used to help me put my things in the corner and help me jump in the bin and pick things up and you know.
Q. That’s brilliant. What places would you say you go to most in Hackney? Places? [00:14:52]
BH. What with my art or just to collect?
Interviewer. Just all of it, just in your life.
BH. One, I go to classes, if there are any workshops i.e. business workshops, I have gone to… In Hackney only?
Interviewer. Yeah, yeah.
BH. Oh my Lord, I have covered all of Hackney, all of Hackney. I have taught in Stamford Hill. I have gone there for classes. I have gone there for festival. There is a festival, you will see me there with my little stall. I have been working down at L Crep? [00:15:36]. You will see me down in CVS. You will see me up there near Finsbury Park. I go all over the place. I had a workshop down in Hackney Wick. I am always up and down. And you see me in the corner in Hackney Museum. And you know the exhibition of the jackets down there with the buttons, we were involved in that Freeform Arts, we made those beaded buttons.
Q. Oh wow you made those? [00:16:09]
BH. Yeah the beaded buttons, yeah. It was part and parcel of the exhibition. They said “What, what can you do to make this stand out”, because I mean, I was working with a very high profile artist like Lee, Lee something, he is always involved with the London Fashion Week. He was the main leader in that workshop for Freeform Arts, and I was working with another Asian girl and there was another artist, and I was working with a lady from House of Antoine. To me, those are big shots and they said “Okay, since you do your beadwork, what can you do?” I looked at the whole thing and I thought - no, they have designed the whole thing, they have tied it and dyed it and they have done everything, what can I do? I said, “Okay, what about the buttons? What do you think of the buttons?” They say, “Well, if you can do anything.” I said, give me five of them. I went home… came out with beads. And they said, “Okay, make fifty more.” We made fifty more. Now, they are hanging out there.
Q. Because that's a really exciting project, isn’t it? [00:17:33]
BH. Exactly.
Interviewer. The things, being creative, that’s really wonderful.
BH. So those are all the people that inspire you, because if you are sitting in that little corner called Haggerston where I work in that little studio, and then the phone rings and they say, “Betty, Zenzele can you come and do something?” It makes me feel, ‘Hey I have walked another ten miles,’ to me it’s not one mile it’s ten. Ten, ten. If somebody calls me, I feel [exhales], it means that I am on the right track.
Interviewer. Oh no, definitely, definitely.
BH. Yeah, it means I am on the right track.
Q. What would you say you like most about Hackney people, the people you’ve come across? [00:18:10]
BH. People here, to me the people that I have met and the people that I have worked with, they’re not judgmental. They don't take you … oh that because you are wearing this funny jumper, it's up to how you present yourself to people. And people will always say “Hi Betty, would you like to do this? Would you like to come in and be part of this?” So I mean, when I say, Hackney to me is home, Hackney to me is home, I mean next to the one that I have in South Africa, because I can walk anywhere here. Even in Dalston you would find people saying, “Hi sis,” “Hey African girl” you know?. To me it’s like, you know, sometimes people ask me, “what is your name?” I say “My name is Betty, but they call me “cockney Betty””, because I mean I sit with people, everybody. I can sit and have a chat with bricklayers. To me they are people and people accept me. I have been helped by people that, some people say “Betty you know this people?” I say, “Yeah I know them!” I say “hey what gwan?” The other day, a Turkish guy gave me a sewing machine. His factory was closing down, and I didn't have time, I said I will pick it up in the night. I had to get a trolley again and push this sewing machine. Guess who helps me?
Q. Who helps you? [00:19:50]
BH. Heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy guys who, I mean, people that make people get frightened. And he said, “What are you doing here in the night?” I said, “I have come to pick up the sewing machine,” he said “come on move out of here, move out of here.” They pushed me down, down to my place and I said “Thank you.” I see them and I said —.
Interviewer. You are bringing the best out in people you see, that’s what —.
BH. Yeah, because I am not like “haa”, I say, “Hey, hi how are you?”
Interviewer. Because everyone's got a little bit of good in them.
BH. Exactly, look they have helped me, they have, I mean from, who is this guy, the guy who was a Deputy Mayor here. His name is Oleifera.
Interviewer. I don’t know.
BH. Yeah, there was a guy who used to be a Deputy Mayor.
[Cross Talk]
BH. He used to be, no before that one, there was a mayor, who was Jewish. His deputy mayor was an African guy, Oleifera.
[Cross Talk]
Interviewer 2: I don't know who that is but we can find out
[Cross Talk]
BH. He has helped me so much and he said, I mean, if you need me to be in your management committee or anything, I just said yes, I am on the right track, so.
Interviewer. So it’s about taking the opportunities when you …
BH. But I mean, I am sorry to go back to what I have said. It's how you approach people and how you conduct yourself. If you are going to be a smarty pants then people will think, “Who the hell does she think she is.” But I mean, if you are a just ordinary person saying, “Hi how are you?” People will always help you.
Q That’s brilliant. What things do you miss about Hackney when you are not here? [00:21:41]
BH. I miss my projects [laughs]. I miss my project, and I miss my piece of cloth, and I miss all my workshops. But the most part of it is that … you know home and away, I am always home and away. When I am not here, I am in South Africa, I am working and I am always in touch. But, I miss all those things.
Q. I mean, if you ever find yourself somewhere that's not that place just some, I mean, even for a week or something, the things you kind of think, “Oh I would like to be back for, any aspect of …?” [00:22:14]
BH. I don't know, or maybe it stems from my background. I mean, if you come from abject poverty like I am, I can never say “oh me and my parents, we went on a holiday.” I mean, I started hearing about holidays when I started living in Europe. So to me, I cannot say “oh I am going to Italy for a week”, no it doesn't happen that way. If I am here, I’ll work, a straight two and a half years and I will go home and stay for a week, just eating and sleeping, and then start again until I get on the flight and come back. So I’ve never been away just to chill out.
Interviewer. If you did, you would probably be frustrated.
BH. Honestly, I’ll be like, I will be ready to climb the wall. Because even in South Africa they say, but you say you are coming in holiday. I say I am holidaying, because I am putting things together. I thought maybe by now, I’ll be sitting and having endless cups of teas and I am just about 60 years old. Next year I will be 60 but I cannot sit down, I can’t, yes, 60 years [laughs].
Interviewer 2: No way.
BH. Honestly, April 24, at 02:06, I’ll be 60 years, yeah. But I have never been on holiday to sit out and chill, no.
Q. That’s probably what does it for people, isn’t it really? [00:24:00]
BH. Yeah, because I mean you like, I mean, here, you find my granddaughter lives up the street. My granddaughter is one of those people who eat chips and eats Chinese and to me it’s like, when I was born and where I was born and brought up, you want to eat, you go to the stove, yeah, so it's that type of thing. And here I have got endless things to do. I have got workshops. I have just finished a business course with CIDA (Cultural Industries Development Agency), that took me about 12 weeks, and I enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it.
Interviewer. It's really inspiring actually to talk to someone who likes what they do so much, because not everyone does. You know, you must talk to people, not everyone does.
BH. That’s what I am saying that —.
Interviewer. And also even what you are saying, the course that you, anything you do, you can find something in it, that is enjoyable.
BH. You know why?
Interviewer. Nothing in the world —.
BH. Because of poverty. If you have been, I mean, been poor like we were poor where I was born and brought up, it’s like there’s a ghost that keeps on haunting you, you are trying, if you stay for a day without doing anything, it's like you think “ah things are going to fall apart. I am going to go back there, I am going - .” No. I’ve got to move, so all the time you keep on moving. But luckily I am moving in the direction that I like, rather than saying, “Oh my God I have got to wake up and take and pick and shovel.” No. I can walk around, go to a sale or go to anywhere and see a nice skirt and take that skirt and I cut there, and I cut there, and I put this, and I put that, and it makes me feel good.
Q. That’s good. How would you describe Hackney, to someone else when you go back to Africa? How do you describe Hackney? [00:25:55]
BH. Hackney is a melting pot, a real melting pot. And Hackney is very fertile when it comes to art. It’s got artists from all around the world, who live here. I went to, I was invited by Hidden Art of Hackney. This is about three or four years ago down at Good Yard, Liverpool Street, Good Yard, where I had my little beading exhibition there among how many artists, 140.
Interviewer. That's, I mean, that is astonishing that —.
BH. 140. So it tells you, it was all those artists came from Hackney, nowhere else. From people who did pottery, from people who did corsets, everything, everybody came down there with their wares. It was an exhibition that lasted about a week and people were milling through in and out, in and out, in and out. I nearly sold everything that I had there. But I mean there was 159 and 140 with me.
Q. I mean talk about all these different artists, you mentioned obviously you got inspiration, I mean I really like your story of the van and, I mean that … it’s like a single moment where something happened. To what extent do you think all these other artists that you come across, doing all sorts of different sorts of art forms, how does that feed into your work and what you do, and what would you draw from that? [00:27:27]
BH. What I draw from that is that, I am a member of this invisible family that meets maybe once a year or maybe in two years. We don't know one another we just, maybe we meet somewhere there. There are those four or five that you can make friends with. But it sort of gives me … what can I, like petrol to a car that I am sitting here doing this. There is somebody who is doing something bigger than this. I mean we are like in a big wheel, a wheel has got spikes and little notches, maybe I am that little cork, but I belong to this big wheel in Hackney.
Interviewer. Interesting you say, like petrol to a car, its almost like the driving force, the fire that kind of helps you —.
BH. If you come across someone who is saying, “Hey you are doing this, why don't you get in touch with so and so, so this can move from point A to point,” you know those are all the things that keep you, that keep me going really, it really keep me going.
Interviewer. Oh that’s really brilliant. I think we have covered a lot of it.
BH. Otherwise you'll have me here for the next coming [laughs].
Interviewer. Oh no, thats good, thats good. [laughter]
Q. What I want to ask you is, what things from Hackney’s past, a long time ago. What things, and they could be buildings, structures, objects, or they could be stories that you’ve heard or things you know about the history. What things from the past influenced you in living your life or doing your art? [00:29:15]
BH. A long time ago, I used to go down to Kenton Road. They had this funny hall, I think it’s a big restaurant now, an empty rambling building now. To me it has lost its character. I used to go down there and see fantastic shows. I saw that lady who was in, you know Barbara Windsor, yeah, I used to go down there. They used to have shows and they used to dress in these Victorian you know, it was —.
Interviewer. A music hall?
BH. It was a music hall down in Kenton Road, but I don't know what happened and then it shut down now. It's a funny little, funny, big, empty building now that is —. And it’s like, what is that market down in, oh god, at the end of Shoreditch… Brick Lane!
Interviewer. Yeah.
BH. Those are all the places, sometimes when you are really skint and you want to do something nice, you can go to Brick Lane, and with a fiver you can buy nice things and you know, I mean… [laughter].
Interviewer. I know, I can't say too much, because they don’t want to fill the tape of me talking [laughter].
BH. Exactly, it's like the Hackney Town Hall, now it has changed. But I mean I used to sing and dance for my team at one time. We used to go down there and get into these nice dressing rooms and you know, those are all the things.
Interviewer. Oh that's great. I think we have kind of got, yeah, an awful lot there about kind of positive things about Hackney. I mean that's probably all the things —.
BH. It’s like big building that I wish I could just eat like ice cream —.
Q. Which one is it? [00:31:38]
BH. In Arbutus Street where they, where I met that big van, now they have built penthouses. But I am so glad I picked up that material.
Interviewer. I mean you say, what, so you say … is it just —.
BH. I mean, it's sort of like it makes me so mad now, because I mean where do they think I will get my pieces of material now?
Interviewer. But there is still industry, you will still find industry in Hackney where you will get those things –. [00:32:04]
BH. But I mean the clothing industry in Hackney is shrinking on a very large scale. Three weeks ago, a Chinese guy stopped us and said, “Listen I heard that there is a woman here, an African woman,” he actually walked to All Saints and knocked on the door and said “There is an African woman here, who picks rubbish down the clothes.” They said “Betty, you’ve got a customer.” I went down there. The landlord is kicking people out, he wants to do something. And the Chinese guy had a factory down there. He said I should come and pick up the leftovers. The leftovers were from that side to that side. Yes, I am not talking about a small piece, I am talking silk, I am talking linen.
Q. How do you think people will feel? People obviously want to give you this stuff, don’t they, they’re happier. They don't want to see the waste. They don't want to see those textiles just go into the ground or whatever. [00:32:56]
BH. Exactly.
Q. So how do you think, I mean, what kind of feedback do you get from those people? [00:33:11]
BH. The feedback that I get from those people is like, you know that song “Chariots of Fire” that I am running this big marathon and there are people standing on the side saying “Go Betty go, go, go, go.” One day, they will see me there with a big trophy. To me a big trophy is a space whereby I can be able to preach, to evangelize this thing that, you know… recycling, I mean especially fabric recycling, is everybody else's tomorrow, because with fabric you cannot sleep on the floor. You can make a big eiderdown and you can sleep and you can cover yourself. You can never walk bare, you will always be smartly dressed. So that is the marathon. And the day I get that, that song, will be the song that will ring through the place, “Chariots of Fire,” because I know, I have walked, but now I am starting to run.
Interviewer. All these people, they are supporting what they are doing. When you take the stuff away, they’re really happy.
BH. Imagine a Chinese guy not wanting to throw things away or to sell them at the market and just giving them, bam, to me. A girl down in Brick Lane, a very rich Asian girl called me and said, “My mom and dad came here as youngsters and they cooked curry, they’ve got five curry houses, and they started the leather thing, but the leather thing is dwindling in Brick Lane. Come and pick up this leather, these pieces of leather.” The African walks in there with a little plastic bag, because I thought she was going to give me… [laughter]. She says “Excuse me, are you Betty?” I say, “Yeah.” She said, “Okay, do you drive?” I say, “Not even a bike my dear,” very posh, I can’t drive. She said, “Okay, wait here,” she called some gentlemen, they brought out bags of leather, 15 solid bags of leather. No, I’m not taking small pieces like the African girl was expecting, big ones like this, buckles, buttons, everything in all assorted colours. Said, “I heard about you, so please make good use of those.”
Q. So you think that you are making people feel better when you take their stuff away, they are feeling like the man at burberry?. [00:36:07]
BH. No, because it is like, for once in a while, they are not going to take it to, they are not taking it to a charity, where it's going to be just sold willy-nilly. It is going to a place where somebody is going to help somebody, somebody who is going to help somebody. To me, it is the feedback I get from giving me, because that's what that girl said, she said, “Look here, I know I can sell this, but my dad, my parents left me this whole block from there to where you cannot see. So I am not boasting, saying that I am a multi-millionaire, but my parents suffered for me to who I am, so I am giving back to the society that made my parents to be millionaires, to make me a very young millionaire.” The girl is about 28.
Interviewer. Well, that’s a really nice story.
BH. Yeah.
[Cross Talk] [Ends Abruptly]
[00:37:37] END OF INTERVIEW
Interviewer. [00:00:06] Really just so that, from what we say I can kind of actually kind of go back —.
Betty Hlela (BH). Extract —.
Interviewer. Extract. And what we will be doing is putting kind of quotes, and things people have said on labels, in the exhibition. On just the last thing, in the exhibition there will be object in cases. Obviously, it's a museum and we are kind of linking it into objects. What we are asking is everybody to choose an object, or maybe a couple of objects, which in some way reflect what they like about Hackney. It can be as direct as you like, it's kind of real free, you can choose the object and we can get onto that later we will have a chat about objects.
BH. Okay.
Interviewer. That's kind of how it's going to work. Then there will be pictures as well. After this we will make an appointment and get a photograph of you, that’s going to be in the exhibition —.
BH. I am going to be in the —.
Interviewer. Absolutely.
BH. Okay. I mean, as I was saying that, I mean, for me living in Hackney, nearly half my life, I came here as a semi-adult, and I have lived in other parts of London, but for a very short period. And whenever I change places, I came back to Hackney. My last place I have lived down there in Shoreditch for the past 20 years. To my biggest surprise I lived next to garment industry factories.
[00:01:55] One day, I mean, I was going through a very bad period, and I walked up the street and I saw this big van, reversing into one big tip. What they tipped there really turned my life. This is what has turned me into a fabric recycling person. Because from there, the van reversed into this big tip and it tipped one sewing machine, and it tipped so much fabric, it took me half the night moving these things from there to the factory, because I was trying my uppermost to work this thing out before the vulture came in to pick up this thing. There was cotton there, there was pieces of material, I am not talking small pieces, I am talking four, five meters. I took these things back there and I thought, Lord, are they sure, because I asked this guy, “Are you sure you are throwing these things away?” The guy says “Yeah, the van is going to come and pick it up in the morning if we don't pick it up.” So I picked these things up and I went home and I just thought - yes, this is the end of all my up and down, looking for what I want to do. From that machine, I went and asked a guy down in Hoxton who fixed sewing machines, came in and said it only needs a few spares. I sat down, I started — [sewing noises]. I used to have a stall in Covent Garden selling mixed and matched shirts, African shirts and what is called a cloth cap. I have never looked back. To an extent I have made friends with people, one in Orsman Road. He said to me, “You don't need to go to the bin anymore. Come in, we will put bits and pieces of material on the side.”
Interviewer. Oh that’s really nice.
BH. That is why my project is called Zenzele meaning in Zulu, “Do it yourself.”
Q. Is that how you spell it is it —? [00:04:22]
BH. Z-E-N-Z-E-L-E.
Q. And that means do it yourself? [00:04:27]
BH. Do it yourself.
Q. So that would be a response you would give to someone who said to you, “Oh can you do this for me?” You would just say that as well? [00:04:29]
BH. Yeah. From 11 o'clock I worked until 5:00 a.m. picking those bits of, and guess what I used as a mode of transport? I used a Sainsbury’s trolley, up and down, up and down, yeah.
Interviewer. That’s really nice.
BH. Okay. Zenzele gave birth to one fantastic label called Born in Hackney.
Interviewer. That’s perfect.
BH. Yeah. So till today I have been working with other fellow recyclers, one of them is L Crep? [00:05:14] East London recycling company up in Clapton, run by a tall Scotsman called Cam Matheson. Those are the people who have been helping me and trying to help me with running workshops, although I run workshops down there, but now, I have started running around with a little bag with some pieces of material, just to teach in order to keep the awareness plus this is how I earn a living. Luckily I was born and brought up in South Africa. So I match my Britishness with the South African and out comes Zenzele and Born in Hackney, because some of the bags now have taken a turn of depicting little bits of beadwork and everything, you know, to make them stand out.
Interviewer. Yeah.
BH. But this is what I love about Hackney, because once you do something, you know you can go and apply for little funds here and there. It’s up to you how you push yourself.
Interviewer. Yeah.
BH. So, I have been helped by people like HCVS (Hackney Community and Voluntary Sector) who have introduced me to Hackney Cultural Forum and I am getting bits and pieces that is what has kept me going and nobody will move me from Hackney, no way.
Q. There is opportunities in Hackney… ?. [00:06:48]
BH. So many opportunities, but it's up to you and your elbow grease, you have got to keep on pushing.
Q. Yeah. That’s always true, isn’t it —? [00:06:56]
BH. My grandma used to say - people never give a lift to somebody who is sitting down, but if you are standing they make [interviewer and BH laughing], exactly. To me, I am like someone who is standing there like a … People are saying “we have seen this woman”, if you can ask a lot of people, a lot of people know me from 1996, trying to push this Zenzele and this Born in Hackney, I have been pushing and pushing, because I love it.
Interviewer. Yeah, that’s right.
BH. Yeah, I love it, although I am not a millionaire, I thought maybe by year 2005, I will be a millionaire, but —.
Interviewer. Rubbish, yeah. [Interviewer and BH laughing]
BH. Maybe I will be a billionaire, who knows.
Q. Maybe. Who did you do the workshops with? [00:07:36]
BH. Hackney is a very diverse community. I have worked with a series of people. Even my workshop here, I mean, there was a mixture of people from my people, to Asians, to your people, to everybody else that were here. I go to schools, I work a lot with the Ecology Centre near Arsenal Station. There I get loads and loads of different people. Even in the studio when we advertise we get a series of people, different people.
Interviewer. Because there is so much interest in recycling anyway now and reuse —.
BH. No, because the awareness is beginning to pick up. People always, I remember when we were doing door-to-door, people always used to say, “What are you going to do with this rubbish?” We say “hey, we don’t call it rubbish, we call it waste,” because it's going to come back to your house again through the backdoor without even you realising that this is something that you put in the box two weeks ago. And they said, “What do you mean?” I said, “Okay, come down to the studio, yeah. The newspaper you are reading is the newspaper that you put in and it has been rejuvenated and it comes back to you, even the paper that you put in the printer.” “Is that so?” I say “Yeah.” So that’s why we keep on and on and on. People come in and drop things there. I mean like, next month in November we are going to have one massive workshop of quilting, because quilting does not mean that you need to go and buy a certain piece of material. You just put in a lot of other things and you draw this big picture and then you come out with something big. I can't go and live in Chelsea because [uncertain noises], but Hackney, I am at home.
Interviewer. Yeah, that's really good.
BH. I am at home.
[Cross Talk]
Interviewer. These are just a framework to get things going, but that’s been really brilliant.
BH. I have made so many friends, to an extent, I have made friends with people who run second-hand shops, people who do jumble sales, because we have, I have started this recycling here and in South Africa way, I mean, we have just baptised what we have been doing over the years. I mean we come from Africa, I went to school with a pair of shoes that used to be sewn with a needle and on hand-me-downs, so that was a recycling. So recycling in South Africa is not something new. However, now with me here, I see things and I take them down there and they do them up. We have got a stall in, at the V&A on this Saturday. Some of the things that I am going to show there are recycled clothes that I took from here to South Africa, washed, ironed and beaded, I call it African culture.
Q. And then bring it back? [00:10:55]
BH. Now, it's just like, “Oh wow”, this and in some other people's eyes it’s, honestly, it is so beautiful. They have beaded it up and it's been sewn nicely, yay.
Q. That’s the stuff that was thrown away? [00:11:13]
BH. Because I mean, there is a lot of…, people always think that, oh South Africa is free. I am not saying it's poor, but there are some other sections whereby it hasn't filtered down. I.e. there is a lot of children who are orphaned due to this AIDS sketch. So, when we take things down there, they take what they can take, and they recycle the other things. They turn it into sleeping things, and some of them, they make for me and I bring back and I sell you know it’s to and fro.
Q. Absolutely, it helps everyone. Where do you think your artistic inspiration comes from in Hackney? I mean, for the things you make, you know the “I Love Hackney” or the “Made in Hackney” label, where did that come from? This sort of artistic inspiration for the things you make? [00:11:45]
BH. Well, I came here through, I mean, into this country as an artist, as a dancer. We made our own costumes. When I saw that big van, that is the big van that I saw on that night, and I started working from 9 o'clock till 6:00 a.m. moving these things, so that was my inspiration. At home in Shoreditch, there is this guy, Alexander McQueen, he used to have a studio down there, and I used to pass by and see all those beautiful clothes and think, how can I do this, because I love clothes, and I love shoes. But I did not have the means of buying a sewing machine, I didn't have any means of buying materials. But that day it was like somebody said, “Listen, just move, just squeeze yourself through there and there is your dream”, and there was my dream.
Interviewer. Well that’s brilliant.
BH. Yeah. Down there is this posh guy Mr. McQueen himself, and here there’s these factories, even the Burberry Factory down in Frederick Terrace. I go there and say to the boss, “Hi boss, can I go into your bin.” Before he used to say, “No,” but one day I just decided, “Me, you can never say no to me, if I want something, I want it.” I went there with a handbag. I went at night and I jumped into the bin and I picked up this big bag of fabric off cuts, and I made a bag. One day I knocked in his office around about two (2pm), and I said, “Excuse me, can I see the garment?” He said, “God.” “You remember, you chased me from your bin. I went in the night this is the bag that I made.” The guy says, “Come on, okay now take everything you want.” Yes, I’ve got a Burberry bag.
Interviewer. That is such a good way of [laughing].
BH. Yeah, because I wanted to show him that I am not just taking them, just to be nasty. I showed him that these are the tools of my art, I need to do something that is going to stand out.
Interviewer. Yeah, that's brilliant. That's a very unusual story. He must have been really surprised that day, you know. That’s…
BH. I mean, with my recycling, I can write big books, you know, because sometimes I used to go down there in the evening and I meet people, the people who sleep in the street and they helped me push the trolley because they think I am one of them. They say, “Okay, darling, we’ll help you.” There is another Scotsman who used to sleep rough there, he used to help me put my things in the corner and help me jump in the bin and pick things up and you know.
Q. That’s brilliant. What places would you say you go to most in Hackney? Places? [00:14:52]
BH. What with my art or just to collect?
Interviewer. Just all of it, just in your life.
BH. One, I go to classes, if there are any workshops i.e. business workshops, I have gone to… In Hackney only?
Interviewer. Yeah, yeah.
BH. Oh my Lord, I have covered all of Hackney, all of Hackney. I have taught in Stamford Hill. I have gone there for classes. I have gone there for festival. There is a festival, you will see me there with my little stall. I have been working down at L Crep? [00:15:36]. You will see me down in CVS. You will see me up there near Finsbury Park. I go all over the place. I had a workshop down in Hackney Wick. I am always up and down. And you see me in the corner in Hackney Museum. And you know the exhibition of the jackets down there with the buttons, we were involved in that Freeform Arts, we made those beaded buttons.
Q. Oh wow you made those? [00:16:09]
BH. Yeah the beaded buttons, yeah. It was part and parcel of the exhibition. They said “What, what can you do to make this stand out”, because I mean, I was working with a very high profile artist like Lee, Lee something, he is always involved with the London Fashion Week. He was the main leader in that workshop for Freeform Arts, and I was working with another Asian girl and there was another artist, and I was working with a lady from House of Antoine. To me, those are big shots and they said “Okay, since you do your beadwork, what can you do?” I looked at the whole thing and I thought - no, they have designed the whole thing, they have tied it and dyed it and they have done everything, what can I do? I said, “Okay, what about the buttons? What do you think of the buttons?” They say, “Well, if you can do anything.” I said, give me five of them. I went home… came out with beads. And they said, “Okay, make fifty more.” We made fifty more. Now, they are hanging out there.
Q. Because that's a really exciting project, isn’t it? [00:17:33]
BH. Exactly.
Interviewer. The things, being creative, that’s really wonderful.
BH. So those are all the people that inspire you, because if you are sitting in that little corner called Haggerston where I work in that little studio, and then the phone rings and they say, “Betty, Zenzele can you come and do something?” It makes me feel, ‘Hey I have walked another ten miles,’ to me it’s not one mile it’s ten. Ten, ten. If somebody calls me, I feel [exhales], it means that I am on the right track.
Interviewer. Oh no, definitely, definitely.
BH. Yeah, it means I am on the right track.
Q. What would you say you like most about Hackney people, the people you’ve come across? [00:18:10]
BH. People here, to me the people that I have met and the people that I have worked with, they’re not judgmental. They don't take you … oh that because you are wearing this funny jumper, it's up to how you present yourself to people. And people will always say “Hi Betty, would you like to do this? Would you like to come in and be part of this?” So I mean, when I say, Hackney to me is home, Hackney to me is home, I mean next to the one that I have in South Africa, because I can walk anywhere here. Even in Dalston you would find people saying, “Hi sis,” “Hey African girl” you know?. To me it’s like, you know, sometimes people ask me, “what is your name?” I say “My name is Betty, but they call me “cockney Betty””, because I mean I sit with people, everybody. I can sit and have a chat with bricklayers. To me they are people and people accept me. I have been helped by people that, some people say “Betty you know this people?” I say, “Yeah I know them!” I say “hey what gwan?” The other day, a Turkish guy gave me a sewing machine. His factory was closing down, and I didn't have time, I said I will pick it up in the night. I had to get a trolley again and push this sewing machine. Guess who helps me?
Q. Who helps you? [00:19:50]
BH. Heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy guys who, I mean, people that make people get frightened. And he said, “What are you doing here in the night?” I said, “I have come to pick up the sewing machine,” he said “come on move out of here, move out of here.” They pushed me down, down to my place and I said “Thank you.” I see them and I said —.
Interviewer. You are bringing the best out in people you see, that’s what —.
BH. Yeah, because I am not like “haa”, I say, “Hey, hi how are you?”
Interviewer. Because everyone's got a little bit of good in them.
BH. Exactly, look they have helped me, they have, I mean from, who is this guy, the guy who was a Deputy Mayor here. His name is Oleifera.
Interviewer. I don’t know.
BH. Yeah, there was a guy who used to be a Deputy Mayor.
[Cross Talk]
BH. He used to be, no before that one, there was a mayor, who was Jewish. His deputy mayor was an African guy, Oleifera.
[Cross Talk]
Interviewer 2: I don't know who that is but we can find out
[Cross Talk]
BH. He has helped me so much and he said, I mean, if you need me to be in your management committee or anything, I just said yes, I am on the right track, so.
Interviewer. So it’s about taking the opportunities when you …
BH. But I mean, I am sorry to go back to what I have said. It's how you approach people and how you conduct yourself. If you are going to be a smarty pants then people will think, “Who the hell does she think she is.” But I mean, if you are a just ordinary person saying, “Hi how are you?” People will always help you.
Q That’s brilliant. What things do you miss about Hackney when you are not here? [00:21:41]
BH. I miss my projects [laughs]. I miss my project, and I miss my piece of cloth, and I miss all my workshops. But the most part of it is that … you know home and away, I am always home and away. When I am not here, I am in South Africa, I am working and I am always in touch. But, I miss all those things.
Q. I mean, if you ever find yourself somewhere that's not that place just some, I mean, even for a week or something, the things you kind of think, “Oh I would like to be back for, any aspect of …?” [00:22:14]
BH. I don't know, or maybe it stems from my background. I mean, if you come from abject poverty like I am, I can never say “oh me and my parents, we went on a holiday.” I mean, I started hearing about holidays when I started living in Europe. So to me, I cannot say “oh I am going to Italy for a week”, no it doesn't happen that way. If I am here, I’ll work, a straight two and a half years and I will go home and stay for a week, just eating and sleeping, and then start again until I get on the flight and come back. So I’ve never been away just to chill out.
Interviewer. If you did, you would probably be frustrated.
BH. Honestly, I’ll be like, I will be ready to climb the wall. Because even in South Africa they say, but you say you are coming in holiday. I say I am holidaying, because I am putting things together. I thought maybe by now, I’ll be sitting and having endless cups of teas and I am just about 60 years old. Next year I will be 60 but I cannot sit down, I can’t, yes, 60 years [laughs].
Interviewer 2: No way.
BH. Honestly, April 24, at 02:06, I’ll be 60 years, yeah. But I have never been on holiday to sit out and chill, no.
Q. That’s probably what does it for people, isn’t it really? [00:24:00]
BH. Yeah, because I mean you like, I mean, here, you find my granddaughter lives up the street. My granddaughter is one of those people who eat chips and eats Chinese and to me it’s like, when I was born and where I was born and brought up, you want to eat, you go to the stove, yeah, so it's that type of thing. And here I have got endless things to do. I have got workshops. I have just finished a business course with CIDA (Cultural Industries Development Agency), that took me about 12 weeks, and I enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it.
Interviewer. It's really inspiring actually to talk to someone who likes what they do so much, because not everyone does. You know, you must talk to people, not everyone does.
BH. That’s what I am saying that —.
Interviewer. And also even what you are saying, the course that you, anything you do, you can find something in it, that is enjoyable.
BH. You know why?
Interviewer. Nothing in the world —.
BH. Because of poverty. If you have been, I mean, been poor like we were poor where I was born and brought up, it’s like there’s a ghost that keeps on haunting you, you are trying, if you stay for a day without doing anything, it's like you think “ah things are going to fall apart. I am going to go back there, I am going - .” No. I’ve got to move, so all the time you keep on moving. But luckily I am moving in the direction that I like, rather than saying, “Oh my God I have got to wake up and take and pick and shovel.” No. I can walk around, go to a sale or go to anywhere and see a nice skirt and take that skirt and I cut there, and I cut there, and I put this, and I put that, and it makes me feel good.
Q. That’s good. How would you describe Hackney, to someone else when you go back to Africa? How do you describe Hackney? [00:25:55]
BH. Hackney is a melting pot, a real melting pot. And Hackney is very fertile when it comes to art. It’s got artists from all around the world, who live here. I went to, I was invited by Hidden Art of Hackney. This is about three or four years ago down at Good Yard, Liverpool Street, Good Yard, where I had my little beading exhibition there among how many artists, 140.
Interviewer. That's, I mean, that is astonishing that —.
BH. 140. So it tells you, it was all those artists came from Hackney, nowhere else. From people who did pottery, from people who did corsets, everything, everybody came down there with their wares. It was an exhibition that lasted about a week and people were milling through in and out, in and out, in and out. I nearly sold everything that I had there. But I mean there was 159 and 140 with me.
Q. I mean talk about all these different artists, you mentioned obviously you got inspiration, I mean I really like your story of the van and, I mean that … it’s like a single moment where something happened. To what extent do you think all these other artists that you come across, doing all sorts of different sorts of art forms, how does that feed into your work and what you do, and what would you draw from that? [00:27:27]
BH. What I draw from that is that, I am a member of this invisible family that meets maybe once a year or maybe in two years. We don't know one another we just, maybe we meet somewhere there. There are those four or five that you can make friends with. But it sort of gives me … what can I, like petrol to a car that I am sitting here doing this. There is somebody who is doing something bigger than this. I mean we are like in a big wheel, a wheel has got spikes and little notches, maybe I am that little cork, but I belong to this big wheel in Hackney.
Interviewer. Interesting you say, like petrol to a car, its almost like the driving force, the fire that kind of helps you —.
BH. If you come across someone who is saying, “Hey you are doing this, why don't you get in touch with so and so, so this can move from point A to point,” you know those are all the things that keep you, that keep me going really, it really keep me going.
Interviewer. Oh that’s really brilliant. I think we have covered a lot of it.
BH. Otherwise you'll have me here for the next coming [laughs].
Interviewer. Oh no, thats good, thats good. [laughter]
Q. What I want to ask you is, what things from Hackney’s past, a long time ago. What things, and they could be buildings, structures, objects, or they could be stories that you’ve heard or things you know about the history. What things from the past influenced you in living your life or doing your art? [00:29:15]
BH. A long time ago, I used to go down to Kenton Road. They had this funny hall, I think it’s a big restaurant now, an empty rambling building now. To me it has lost its character. I used to go down there and see fantastic shows. I saw that lady who was in, you know Barbara Windsor, yeah, I used to go down there. They used to have shows and they used to dress in these Victorian you know, it was —.
Interviewer. A music hall?
BH. It was a music hall down in Kenton Road, but I don't know what happened and then it shut down now. It's a funny little, funny, big, empty building now that is —. And it’s like, what is that market down in, oh god, at the end of Shoreditch… Brick Lane!
Interviewer. Yeah.
BH. Those are all the places, sometimes when you are really skint and you want to do something nice, you can go to Brick Lane, and with a fiver you can buy nice things and you know, I mean… [laughter].
Interviewer. I know, I can't say too much, because they don’t want to fill the tape of me talking [laughter].
BH. Exactly, it's like the Hackney Town Hall, now it has changed. But I mean I used to sing and dance for my team at one time. We used to go down there and get into these nice dressing rooms and you know, those are all the things.
Interviewer. Oh that's great. I think we have kind of got, yeah, an awful lot there about kind of positive things about Hackney. I mean that's probably all the things —.
BH. It’s like big building that I wish I could just eat like ice cream —.
Q. Which one is it? [00:31:38]
BH. In Arbutus Street where they, where I met that big van, now they have built penthouses. But I am so glad I picked up that material.
Interviewer. I mean you say, what, so you say … is it just —.
BH. I mean, it's sort of like it makes me so mad now, because I mean where do they think I will get my pieces of material now?
Interviewer. But there is still industry, you will still find industry in Hackney where you will get those things –. [00:32:04]
BH. But I mean the clothing industry in Hackney is shrinking on a very large scale. Three weeks ago, a Chinese guy stopped us and said, “Listen I heard that there is a woman here, an African woman,” he actually walked to All Saints and knocked on the door and said “There is an African woman here, who picks rubbish down the clothes.” They said “Betty, you’ve got a customer.” I went down there. The landlord is kicking people out, he wants to do something. And the Chinese guy had a factory down there. He said I should come and pick up the leftovers. The leftovers were from that side to that side. Yes, I am not talking about a small piece, I am talking silk, I am talking linen.
Q. How do you think people will feel? People obviously want to give you this stuff, don’t they, they’re happier. They don't want to see the waste. They don't want to see those textiles just go into the ground or whatever. [00:32:56]
BH. Exactly.
Q. So how do you think, I mean, what kind of feedback do you get from those people? [00:33:11]
BH. The feedback that I get from those people is like, you know that song “Chariots of Fire” that I am running this big marathon and there are people standing on the side saying “Go Betty go, go, go, go.” One day, they will see me there with a big trophy. To me a big trophy is a space whereby I can be able to preach, to evangelize this thing that, you know… recycling, I mean especially fabric recycling, is everybody else's tomorrow, because with fabric you cannot sleep on the floor. You can make a big eiderdown and you can sleep and you can cover yourself. You can never walk bare, you will always be smartly dressed. So that is the marathon. And the day I get that, that song, will be the song that will ring through the place, “Chariots of Fire,” because I know, I have walked, but now I am starting to run.
Interviewer. All these people, they are supporting what they are doing. When you take the stuff away, they’re really happy.
BH. Imagine a Chinese guy not wanting to throw things away or to sell them at the market and just giving them, bam, to me. A girl down in Brick Lane, a very rich Asian girl called me and said, “My mom and dad came here as youngsters and they cooked curry, they’ve got five curry houses, and they started the leather thing, but the leather thing is dwindling in Brick Lane. Come and pick up this leather, these pieces of leather.” The African walks in there with a little plastic bag, because I thought she was going to give me… [laughter]. She says “Excuse me, are you Betty?” I say, “Yeah.” She said, “Okay, do you drive?” I say, “Not even a bike my dear,” very posh, I can’t drive. She said, “Okay, wait here,” she called some gentlemen, they brought out bags of leather, 15 solid bags of leather. No, I’m not taking small pieces like the African girl was expecting, big ones like this, buckles, buttons, everything in all assorted colours. Said, “I heard about you, so please make good use of those.”
Q. So you think that you are making people feel better when you take their stuff away, they are feeling like the man at burberry?. [00:36:07]
BH. No, because it is like, for once in a while, they are not going to take it to, they are not taking it to a charity, where it's going to be just sold willy-nilly. It is going to a place where somebody is going to help somebody, somebody who is going to help somebody. To me, it is the feedback I get from giving me, because that's what that girl said, she said, “Look here, I know I can sell this, but my dad, my parents left me this whole block from there to where you cannot see. So I am not boasting, saying that I am a multi-millionaire, but my parents suffered for me to who I am, so I am giving back to the society that made my parents to be millionaires, to make me a very young millionaire.” The girl is about 28.
Interviewer. Well, that’s a really nice story.
BH. Yeah.
[Cross Talk] [Ends Abruptly]
[00:37:37] END OF INTERVIEW